THE YANK'S NEW YEAR'S DAY 2017 TOP 50 GB&I

[Sean_A]

I thought I would start out the New Year with a top 50 GB&I Ranking.  Why not...folks love a good argument.  To make a few things clear; this list is based on what I think about the quality of the courses, not my preferences.  Therefore, price is not a criterion and neither is location. However, I do include beauty as relevant to rankings.  Eye candy matters even if it is likely weighted too heavily by many.  I do understand that preference must play some part in any ranking, but I have tried to be objective, albeit in a necessarily subjective manner.  It is quite plain that I favour courses which have a unique identity.

Being a proponent of grouping courses rather than an ordinal listing, I included this element.  However, I do understand that folks love ordinal ranking, so I did this as well, but quite naturally, the results will bear out many ties simply because I don’t think there is anything to choose between many courses.  So, each course has a number assigned to it and the lines dividing the groups of courses signify my cut-off points for each group.  That means I am not fussed about which order the courses fall within a group, but that there is a definite if small quality gap between each group. 

It turns out that using this system, I have clearly identified my top 9 courses and nominally have Ballybunion Old holding down the #10 spot.  But...I think there are good arguments to be made that any of the 30 courses in the third group could be #10.  At the moment, I happen to think Ballybunion Old is that course and the main contenders for me are St Enodoc, Dornoch, Rye, Formby, St Georges Hill & Walton Heath Old, but it is largely meaningless....what matters is the grouping.


The Next 50
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64019.0.html

Without further ado

1st GROUP

1. Sandwich
1. West Links
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

2nd GROUP

3. Castle Stuart
4. Lahinch
4. TOC
4. Prestwick
4. Sunny Old
4. Gleneagles Kings
4. Kingsbarns
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

3rd GROUP

10. Ballybunion Old
10. St Enodoc
10. Dornoch
10. Rye
10. Formby
10. St Georges Hill
10. Walton Heath Old
17. Co Down
17. Deal
17. Elie
17. Alwoodley
21. The Island
21. Cruden Bay
21. Royal Aberdeen
21. Renaissance
21. Woking
21. Trump Aberdeen
27. Portrush
27. Swinley Forest
27. Sunny New
27. Muirfield
27. Hoylake
27. Birkdale
27. Portstewart
27. Co Sligo
27. Worplesdon
27. Portmarnock
27. Ganton
27. Royal Worlington
27. Kington
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

4th GROUP

40. Pennard
40. Enniscrone
40. Hunstanton
40. Brancaster
40. Porthcawl
40. Carnoustie
40. Saunton East
40. Turnberry
40. Princes
40. Castle Course
50. Notts

There are nine other courses I think could easily be included in the 4th group, but I have currently left them out.

Burnham & Berrow
Carnegie Links
Troon
Lytham
Carne
Woodhall Spa
Moortown
Little Aston
West Hill

I welcome fits about about bad rankings, but I am hoping this post will lead to some discussion about the design attributes of specific courses rather than simply be a discussion about where courses should be ranked. 

Happy New Year & Ciao

[jeffwarne]

That seems like a really thoughtful balanced list, though a GCA type would be remiss not to research your lists of personal favorites before embarking on a journey.


Minor suprises?

Certainly tells me I need to visit Gleneagles!
Was thrilled to see Pennard make the list(it's in my top 10-20) given your discipline of  not giving favorites undue credit over quality (especially given the conditioning woes you've observed)
Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart in some pretty heady company-while this and Trump Aberdeen(which I'll not play) might make me think you're overly impressed on a quality list by eye candy;however your unconventional lower ranking of RCD(the gold standard of beauty and eye candy) tells me otherwise.


It definitely tells me you're probably more fair than I seem to be when it comes to appreciating modern links.
Castle Course(which I've not played) on the list confirms that theory--given that there are MANY, many courses that could be plugged into that relatively high spot slot instead.
Also tells me I need to rethink/revisit Woodhall Spa as your Top 50 is not easy to crack.(especially given ongoing work there)




As always, thanks for the effort-pretty hard to find any fault with it

[Tim Gallant]

Sean,


Thanks for sharing. I always think it is interesting to see the difference in how British people compare Royal Aberdeen against its Aberdonian neighbors vs. what the rest of the world thinks. In general, I see Brits put RA and CB side-by-side, whereas I usually see Cruden Bay 'ranked' higher by those in the States. Any guesses as to why this is?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sean's list I crossed out those I haven't played.
 1st group
1. Sandwich  1. Sandwich
1. West Links
 2nd GROUP
 
 3. Castle Stuart
 4. Lahinch
 4. TOC
 4. Prestwick
 4. Sunny Old
 4. Gleneagles Kings
 4. Kingsbarns
 
 3rd GROUP

 10. Ballybunion Old
 10. St Enodoc
 10. Dornoch
 10. Rye
 10. Formby
 10. St Georges Hill
 10. Walton Heath Old
 17. Co Down
 17. Deal
 17. Elie
 17. Alwoodley
 21. The Island
 21. Cruden Bay
 21. Royal Aberdeen
 21. Renaissance
 21. Woking
21. Trump Aberdeen
 27. Portrush
 27. Swinley Forest
 27. Sunny New
 27. Muirfield
 27. Hoylake
 27. Birkdale
 27. Portstewart
 27. Co Sligo
 27. Worplesdon
 27. Portmarnock
 27. Ganton
 27. Royal Worlington
 27. Kington
 
 4th GROUP
 
 40. Pennard
 40. Enniscrone
 40. Hunstanton
 40. Brancaster
 40. Porthcawl
 40. Carnoustie
 40. Saunton East
 40. Turnberry
 40. Princes
 40. Castle Course
 40. Notts
I haven’t played 13 of Sean’s courses. I have a pretty different order as well.  I’ve played about 180 courses in GB&I.
Top 10 in no particular order.
TOC
Country Down
Portrush (Dunluce)
Ballybunion Old
Sunningdale New and Old
Dornoch
Muirfield
Rye
Royal St. George (Sandwich)
 
Second 10
Woodhall Spa
Ganton
Lahinch
Walton Heath Old
Kingsbarns
Prestwick
Swinley Forest
St. Enodoc
Turnberry  Ailsa) (have not seen the renovation)
Birkdale
 
Third 10
Loch Lomond
Carnoustie
Porthcawl
North Berwick
Alwoodley
Saunton East
County Louth
Portmarnock
Troon
Formby
 
Fourth 10
Delamere Forest
The European Club
Portrush Valley
Berkshire Red and blue (not much difference between the two)
St. Andrews New
Old Head
Walton Heath New
Pennard
Royal Liverpool (Hoylake)
 
Fifth 10
Royal North Devon
Wentworth West
Southerndown
The Island
Burnham and Berrow
Reddish Vale
Woking
County Sligo
Royal St. David
Moortown
 
There are a few I absolutely love but aren’t good enough to be even in a top 100. Some I love for the course, others for the experience.
Bull Bay in Wales (pretty unknown)
Pitlochery
Tralee
Dooks
Enniscrone (could be a top 100 contender)
Saunton West (could be a top 100 contender)
Portmarnock Hotel
Killarney Mahoney’s Point (“What a lovely place to die.”
Ballyliffen Glashedy and old
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[BCowan]

S,

   Does lack of tree removal prevent Huntercombe from being in the top 50? 

[Sean_A]

S,

   Does lack of tree removal prevent Huntercombe from being in the top 50?

Ben

If Huntercombe were presented something close as designed by keeping only specimen trees in sensible areas I think it would definitely contend for a top 50 spot.  If the club ever decided to restore some of the original bunkering and get a grip on trees its a shoe in top 50 and would be a stunning design. Even in its present state I think Huntercombe is a top 100 course.

Tim

Royal Aberdeen is a great course, though very different from Cruden Bay.  Most Americans probably prefer the quirky originality of CB...I do.  What really lifts RA for me is the back 9.  The front is wonderful and all that, but the dunes make for a very constricted set of holes.  The back opens up and gives us more variety.  The combo of the two sides is superb. That said, CB takes us up, over, around and through the dunes rather than the somewhat one dimensional approach of RA.

Jeff

It is very difficult to find much wrong with Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart.  I think the variety of holes and how they are layered on each property more than make up for the few shortcomings.  In short, these are modern masterpieces, each of which rather surprised me for their quality.  Castle Stuart is my clear preference, but I can't really say it is superior Kingsbarns.  Both courses have definitely been built with an eye toward views, but that is a positive so far as I am concerned.  To some extent, the layering of the designs created situations where views could be more comfortably incorporated into the designs, but the layering also makes sense from a routing PoV.

I have a love/hate relationship with Woodhall Spa.  The property is lovely, the turf fine, its a good walk, the bunkers are serious. However, the style of course puts me in two minds.  Woodhall is quite penal and the greens aren't very interesting.  But the course is not the sort which should see a lot of lost balls. The bunkers should be doing the talking, but rough and trees have compromised the intent quite badly.  If these things are sorted, I am sure the course will go up in my opinion even though the penal style is not to my taste. That said, at least the bunkers are meaningful and in this age of road map bunkers that is quite important.   

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sean, if the greens at WS had more slope and undulation there would be complaints that the course is difficult enough why make the greens difficult. The shots into and around the greens are just splendid.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you Sean for submitting this thread.
I go along with the idea of course groupings rather than a specific position/rank for each.
Some interesting inclusions and positions. Here are some comments although they are restricted to those courses I've actually played.

Surprisingly low - RCD, Sunningdale New, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Enniscrone, Burnham & Berrow. Carne.
Surprisingly high - RStG, St Enodoc, Gleneagles Kings, Portstewart, Kington, County Sligo.
Omissions? - Sandy Hills at Rosapenna? County Louth? European Club? Brora?
I also note the inclusion of a certain D-scale zero course!
Grouping 3 may perhaps be better split into two with Grp 4 becoming 5 although I reckon you have a good reason for grouping as is.
Cruden Bay - the 9th and 10th holes have changed considerably in recent times (and others have been tweaked). Thoughts from those who've played CB recently/since the changes would be interesting. As to comparing CB with RA, my recollection is that those who have played both CB and RA dozens and dozens and dozens of times tend to place RA higher in pure golfing terms, certainly difficulty, with CB higher for photogenicness/memorability.
As to Huntercombe and Dooks, splendid as both are, I'm not convinced they're near top 50-ers.
Atb and HNY.
PS - how about another separate grouping - a Top 9-holer category to also include Royal Worlington plus the linkes of the Kilmore at Carne and Mulranny!

[Jeff Doerr]

Thanks Sean - I'll be following this thread!

[Sean_A]

Sean, if the greens at WS had more slope and undulation there would be complaints that the course is difficult enough why make the greens difficult. The shots into and around the greens are just splendid.

Tommy

I am not seeking more difficulty, but more variety and interest.  There can be no doubt that with better greens Woodhall would be a better course.

ATB

Don't forget, Co Down and Muirfield can rise as high as #10...I can see the argument for each to do so.  Its just that in my opinion, neither is that good.  Co Down is too punishing with blind drives and Muirfield relies far too much on bunkering for interest.  Most of the courses I think are best have much more interesting terrain than Muirfield. 

I think Portstewart is one of the most over-looked courses in GB&I.  The course offers everything. 

I am afraid Sandy Links and Euro Club are not courses which I think much of.  Sandy Links doesn't make my top 100 and TEC may just scrape in.  Two tough properties which weren't used sympathetically for the average golfer.  They are trying to be championship courses without the championships...very bad combo.  The archie believes in challenging the better player at the cost of playability for the average players.  That isn't the end of the world, but I don't think enough holes are compelling for this to make up for this approach.

Castle Course?  To me, Doak misses the mark by a huge margin on this one.  The course has issues for sure, but there is a lot of very good golf on offer. I am not sure Doak has seen the place in since it opened...or maybe before it opened. 

I agree, Huntercombe is not top 50.

The groups fell as they may according to my thoughts.  I didn't try to balance them in any way.   


I am very surprised nobody has noted Worplesdon being so high. 

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

I watched a SWWoG (modern edition) from Sunningdale New, Nicklaus vs Player. From the hole by hole aerials, the course looked okay, just fine. But from the ground level, the golfers' perspective, on every tee shot and approach, Sunny New seemed to me a truly ideal golf course. A ~65 year old JN played very well, finishing at -4, but time and time again the clever green contours ensured that only his best and smartest approaches left make-able putts. For me, the ground movement, the tie ins, the hazards -- they all worked beautifully. I know that Sunningdale is famous and (as per Tommy) highly regarded, but I'd never seen it 'in play' before last night. I've never seen Walton Heath Old in play either...but I think Sunny might just have bumped it into 2nd place in this Anglophile's 'spend an entire day playing 36 with lunch and after dinner drinks by the fire' list.

[Scott Warren]

Sean,


For what it's worth, I wonder if your new-found fondness for calling North Berwick West Links simply "West Links" is a bit exclusionary for those not in the know and at odds with your otherwise 'everyman' approach.


I love seeing Sandwich/R. St Georges up top. It's such a special course and a great combo of championship tough and sporty fun. Have you ever done a photo tour of it? If not, you should.

[Sean_A]

Scott


The dichotomy of Sandwich is a main reason why its #1.  Still, I wish I had seen the course before it was dumbed down for championship play.  In all earnest, championship golf has a lot to answer for....one of the worst influences on architecture ever to come about.


Pietro


You could do a lot worse than Sunny Old/New for a summer's day golf.  Many people rate New higher because its tougher than the Old.  It does however lack the charm, nuance and funk of the Old even if the stretch of New's 4-6 has no match on the Old.


Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean


Have you not played the Berkshire or do you just not rate it?

[Sean_A]

Sean


Have you not played the Berkshire or do you just not rate it?

Ryan

Berkshire Blue & Red and Pulburough are THE English holes in my resume.  I played all these courses many moons ago, but don't have a decent memory of them so I just whack em' down as not played.  Although, I think the newly opened Beaverbrook has a chance to be outstanding.  Because its modern I am more keen to see than the others, but I have not heard much about it. 

Ciao