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Joel_Stewart

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2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« on: December 29, 2016, 02:21:52 PM »

The full list is being released next week.


Stay tuned.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 08:09:58 PM by Joel_Stewart »

Michael Moore

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2016, 03:58:46 PM »
Is Eagle Point still rated above Laurel Valley?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Andy Johnson

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2016, 04:16:20 PM »
Is Eagle Point still rated above Laurel Valley?


A hunch tells me Laurel Valley moves up to 95, Eagle Point at 100...

David Wuthrich

Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2016, 08:44:56 PM »
Andy, You have a pretty good hunch!!! :) :) :)

Andy Johnson

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2016, 08:53:57 PM »
Yes, my hunches for this topic are pretty good  ;D

Ruediger Meyer

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2016, 04:41:47 AM »
Is there any reason for the constant changes at #1 besides the fact they want to generate headlines?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2016, 08:20:50 AM »
Is there any reason for the constant changes at #1 besides the fact they want to generate headlines?


It's all numbers. The difference between PV and AN is very small. A single ballot can change the positions.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2016, 09:12:35 AM »
Is there any reason for the constant changes at #1 besides the fact they want to generate headlines?


It's all numbers. The difference between PV and AN is very small. A single ballot can change the positions.


That's interesting, but not 100% believable, because in the GOLF Magazine rankings, at least when I did them, the difference between Pine Valley and #2 was vast.  In fact, at one point the editor asked me what it would take for Pine Valley to lose its #1 spot ... and when I analyzed it I discovered that 17 panelists would have to change their vote on Pine Valley and drop it out of the top ten!

PCCraig

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2016, 09:26:08 AM »
Yes, my hunches for this topic are pretty good  ;D


You and Joel must have some pretty high ranking friends at Golf Digest. I am a panelist and while they typically release the results a day early or so on the Panelist website as a sneak peak...that release wasn't scheduled until next week, I believe.
H.P.S.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2016, 11:00:37 AM »
Is there any reason for the constant changes at #1 besides the fact they want to generate headlines?


It's all numbers. The difference between PV and AN is very small. A single ballot can change the positions.


That's interesting, but not 100% believable, because in the GOLF Magazine rankings, at least when I did them, the difference between Pine Valley and #2 was vast.  In fact, at one point the editor asked me what it would take for Pine Valley to lose its #1 spot ... and when I analyzed it I discovered that 17 panelists would have to change their vote on Pine Valley and drop it out of the top ten!


Pretty sure Mr Smith could make that happen if the benefits were right😉

Wayne_Freedman

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2016, 11:09:35 AM »
Is there any reason for the constant changes at #1 besides the fact they want to generate headlines?


Name a publication that does not want to generate headlines.
That said, the numbers are the numbers.
As a GDP, I can tell you that we vote.
They tally.






Tom_Doak

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2016, 12:18:23 PM »

That said, the numbers are the numbers.
As a GDP, I can tell you that we vote.
They tally.


Up until recently, after they tallied, they added points for "tradition" that changed the totals considerably and allowed them a lot of wiggle room.


I'm not sure if that is still a part of the process or not.

Mike Hendren

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2016, 12:44:00 PM »
Two words:   Russian hackers.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Steve Lapper

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2016, 01:12:50 PM »
Those "tradition points must be very useful to the likes of Canyata, Erin Hills, Rich Harvest Links, and Spring Hill, The Preserve and The Alotian Club.......LOL
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2016, 01:26:34 PM »
Those "tradition points must be very useful to the likes of Canyata, Erin Hills, Rich Harvest Links, and Spring Hill, The Preserve and The Alotian Club.......LOL


Actually, it's the GOLF DIGEST definition of greatness -- with 20 points allotted to conditioning and aesthetics, and more for resistance to scoring that rewarded any modern course with a set of tees at 7300 yards -- that were the biggest help to those courses.  The tradition points were used as a kind of stabilizer to prevent too many new courses from replacing the old ones.  However, they did award some "tradition" points for having been on previous top 100 lists.


Giving extra points for tradition is particularly silly, since most of the courses that would deserve any are already rated higher than they should be by the panelists, because of "tradition".  I hope that they have abandoned the practice, even if they still really need to re-write their categories.

Andy Johnson

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2016, 01:55:37 PM »
In general the whole system is flawed, the idea of ranking courses is dumb.


  • There is no way to really compare drastically different sites such as Sand Hills to a Merion and say one is better than the other (systems such as Doak Scale are so much better).
  • There are a lot of great panelists, however the majority are in it for free golf and wouldn't know a good golf course if it hit them in the head.
  • These same panelists which unfortunately make up the majority therefore have two things that are easy to "rate" a golf course on - Conditioning and its difficulty, which is why the rankings see a lot of modern, difficult and immaculately conditioned golf courses.
  • Then of course there is "politics" of an organization like golf digest that survives on Ad revenue.
I will get off my soapbox now but I could write about 10,000 words why these rankings are terrible.




Steve Lapper

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2016, 02:05:32 PM »
Tom,


   My post on tradition points  was pure syrupy & dripping sarcasm.


   Personally, I find GD's list to be the most paradoxical of them all.


Happy New Year!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2016, 02:48:05 PM »
You do know that these guys pay to be raters now. Questioning the validity is like asking a john if she had an orgasm. Everything about it is one big fake job wrapped in money tied by a bow of power. I just want to know why anyone thinks Golfweek is better.

Brad Engel

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2016, 03:03:07 PM »
Given the collective knowledge of this group regarding golf course architecture and what separates a "good" course from a "bad" course (regardless of when it was built) what would be a better set of evaluation categories? I believe the current categories (besides tradition) that Golf Digest uses are: shot values, resistance to scoring, design variety, memorability, aesthetics, conditioning and ambiance.


Those "tradition points must be very useful to the likes of Canyata, Erin Hills, Rich Harvest Links, and Spring Hill, The Preserve and The Alotian Club.......LOL


Actually, it's the GOLF DIGEST definition of greatness -- with 20 points allotted to conditioning and aesthetics, and more for resistance to scoring that rewarded any modern course with a set of tees at 7300 yards -- that were the biggest help to those courses.  The tradition points were used as a kind of stabilizer to prevent too many new courses from replacing the old ones.  However, they did award some "tradition" points for having been on previous top 100 lists.


Giving extra points for tradition is particularly silly, since most of the courses that would deserve any are already rated higher than they should be by the panelists, because of "tradition".  I hope that they have abandoned the practice, even if they still really need to re-write their categories.

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2016, 03:21:40 PM »
The Digest list is almost laughable. I can't begin to fathom some of the placements, or the number of Fazio courses.  But the GM list (of which I am proud to be a participant) has our own problems, mostly due to conflicts of interest and a desire to see International courses in the World list, whether they are deserving or not. 


At the end of the day, if a course is even worth considering for either list, it is probably worth playing and enjoying. 


The formulaic nature of the GD list makes one rank courses at odds with how much one enjoys them. That's a critical flaw. 




Tom_Doak

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2016, 04:12:58 PM »
Given the collective knowledge of this group regarding golf course architecture and what separates a "good" course from a "bad" course (regardless of when it was built) what would be a better set of evaluation categories? I believe the current categories (besides tradition) that Golf Digest uses are: shot values, resistance to scoring, design variety, memorability, aesthetics, conditioning and ambiance.



Brad:


In general, I do not believe that there is a strict definition that should be applied to all courses regardless of their intended purpose.  There are holiday courses, private club courses, and championship courses; calling the holiday courses at fault for not having enough "resistance to scoring" is as silly as holding the championship courses at fault for not being friendly to high-handicap women.  [You'll notice the GOLF DIGEST rankings do the former, but not the latter.]


However, if you want to stick to the general categories GOLF DIGEST has, I think that their top 100 list puts too much emphasis on difficulty, which comes up in both Shot Values AND Resistance to Scoring, and not enough on playability, which they do rate but only use when evaluating public and resort courses.  A great course is one that balances playability and difficulty ... GOLF DIGEST's list tilts hard toward difficulty.


Likewise, they could combine Aesthetics, Memorability and Ambiance into one or two categories at most.


Personally, I don't think they should be using Conditioning as a factor at all, because it can change so much from year to year and even week to week, and there are many GOLF DIGEST panelists who over-value a course which spends opulently on maintenance-for-aesthetics, as opposed to maintenance of a playing surface.




So, if it was me, you could boil it down to Shot Values, Playability, and Memorability and throw out the rest.  I'd love to just take their data and see how that would reshuffle the deck, but of course they don't print the Playability numbers for us to do so.  However, if you just looked at Shot Values separately, here are the courses [based on 2015 scores] that would be most vulnerable:


Under 7.5:  Diamond Creek, Double Eagle, Hudson National, Kittansett, Laurel Valley, Maidstone, French Lick, The Preserve, The Quarry at LaQuinta


7.5 to 7.6:  Arcadia Bluffs, Bandon Trails (!), Black Rock, Blackwolf Run, Calusa Pines, Canyata, Cherry Hills, Eagle Point, Estancia, Flint Hills National, MPCC, Mountaintop, Rich Harvest, Shoreacres, Streamsong (Red), The Valley Club


The only courses in there that I think belong in the top 100 are the three shortest ones - Maidstone, Shoreacres and The Valley Club - and they are probably victims of long hitters' interpretations of "Shot Values".  Other than that, maybe they should just make Shot Values the whole ball of wax.




The funny part is, I don't think what I've suggested would have much effect on their list.  I think most GOLF DIGEST panelists start out with thinking a course is a 7 or an 8.5 or a 9 -- that it deserves to be "in the list" or not -- and then fill in seven numbers that average out to that result.  I say this because you never see results where a course got 8.2 for conditioning but only 5.5 for shot values or memorability ... the numbers always seem to be in a narrower range than that.  If we eliminated all the other categories, half these courses would find a way to stay on the list, because they've been on it, and most panelists secretly feel a need to defend their system by voting in favor of past results.  But if a bad formula hadn't put some of those courses on the list to begin with, I don't think anyone would vote for them.

Tom_Doak

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2016, 04:23:32 PM »
Also, I should have said I think the main reason GOLF DIGEST has so many categories now is that it supports the illusion that the list is somehow objective and/or more accurate.


In fact, the way they do it requires people to weigh in with not one subjective opinion about each course but seven, which is not the way to make anything more to the point.

Steve Lapper

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2016, 05:24:16 PM »
While Tom makes a very rational and logical explanation, and fellow GM panelist Mr. Lewis makes excellent and accurate points all, another well-regarded (at least by Ran and himself :~) GM Panelist just remarked to me after seeing the entire Top 200 list:


 "Who's list...Stevie Wonder?" I added in that Jose Feliciano must've been involved as well.


 ;D :o
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Pat Alpaugh

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2016, 06:13:12 PM »
In an earlier post, a gentleman wrote that the ratings are "dumb".  I think they're fun and they certainly generate interest. 

Scott Warren

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2016, 06:34:45 PM »
Ratings lists are great provided my course does well. Otherwise they're pointless and stupid and the panellists don't know shit.