Should Mike Keiser be in the Hall of Fame?

[John Kavanaugh]

Black and white does a nice job of hiding divots. Play it like a rental.

[John Kavanaugh]

There's no there here.   

In all seriousness. Is there something wrong here in the design? Hitting this shot out of a divot seems unreasonable and unavoidable.

[Garland Bayley]

There's no there here.   

In all seriousness. Is there something wrong here in the design? Hitting this shot out of a divot seems unreasonable and unavoidable.

Nothing wrong with the design.  Perhaps something wrong with pampered golfer expectations.

[Garland Bayley]

,,,
And if money is an issue, feel free to visit in the off-season.  Its much cheaper, and the links nature of the courses mean they are still very playable.
,,,

Great! Winter weather, short days, and I still have to pay $75 more!

No sir .. you don't HAVE to pay anything.

Thanks Mike,

When do you want me to show up as your guest?

[Kalen Braley]

There's no there here.   

In all seriousness. Is there something wrong here in the design? Hitting this shot out of a divot seems unreasonable and unavoidable.

I think John makes a good point here.  If you have a divot ridden area on a course played by golfers of varying skills, (which should lead to a wide variety of places shots end up), then maybe the area it collects from is too large.

[Garland Bayley]

NO!


He promised golf as it used to be at Bandon and then back tracked once he found out how much money he could make by turning it into a Disney World resort.

+1

A Disney resort targets kids and gives them what they want, and charges what the market will bear well  beyond what what is necessary to make a comfortable profit.

Replace kids with "retail golfer" (GMWAS), and you have Disney Oregon.

I'm dying to hear how you precisely define "necessary" and "comfortable" (as used in your post) with actual #s.

That's easy. When they built Bandon Dunes, they calculate $35 to be a profitable green fee (necessary). When they got such a positive press reaction, they raised it to $100 (comfortable).

[John Kavanaugh]

When an architect gets you to cheat to experience the brilliance of his vision he owns part of your soul.

[Sven Nilsen]

You're dead right Kalen and John.  There should be no divots in golf, and god forbid you have contours that create collection areas.


I feel bad for the good folks in Scotland who have to deal with these issues - http://blog.standrews.com/2014/01/09/plugging-away-on-the-old-course/


Disney is a fantasyland.  As are golf courses without divots.  They exist, but Garland would blow a gasket if he had to pay the prices those kind of places demand, if he could even get on.

[Tom_Doak]

I think John makes a good point here.  If you have a divot ridden area on a course played by golfers of varying skills, (which should lead to a wide variety of places shots end up), then maybe the area it collects from is too large.

There are two answers here:


1) It wouldn't be s problem except that the course is so popular that many people play it in the winter when divots don't heal.  Also,


2). If a player really fears his tee shot collecting into this area and winding up in a divot, he could lay back to the right or play left with the intention of staying at the top of the hill, to avoid the area.  That the easiest place to wind up faces a difficult little shot is not necessarily a failure of design.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:


The funny thing is that the photo was taken during the middle of the high season.  Very few people can get a drive that far out there into the summer wind.  The majority of those divots are from folks who either drastically misjudged their approach or duffed the shot.


In the winter, the smart play is to leave yourself a full club in.  There's a pretty good story about a player being told to hit a 4-iron by his caddy, and responding by saying they're playing in a Ryder Cup and he doesn't want to lay up.  The response was along the lines of:


"Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was in a Ryder Cup last week, and the week before that, and the week before that.  Hit your 4-iron."


Sven

[Garland Bayley]

I think John makes a good point here.  If you have a divot ridden area on a course played by golfers of varying skills, (which should lead to a wide variety of places shots end up), then maybe the area it collects from is too large.

I think you miss the point. In the old days, a divot ridden area was turned into a bunker. I think the point is that if you don't like your shot ending in such area or bunker, maybe you should take steps to avoid it.

[John Kavanaugh]

God forgive me, but this is a resort course. The nuance of avoiding a collection area because of divots when spending $500 per day will be lost on most consumers.

[Sven Nilsen]

God forgive me, but this is a resort course. The nuance of avoiding a collection area because of divots when spending $500 per day will be lost on most consumers.

You're welcome to stay home. 


Or you can join Garland on his Scotland trip and play off of mats.


The rest of us are going to enjoy playing on a fast surface where the ball bounces and rolls and, because it isn't dead flat, has a tendency to find certain parts of the fairway.


To get this back on topic, it was the forward thinking vision of Mike Keiser to find land and build courses that allowed for the above that makes him Hall of Fame worthy.


Instead of persisting with your endless campaign to try to besmirch what is Bandon, perhaps you could take a second to appreciate what it took to create a place in the United States where all golfers can appreciate what it is like to play the game on ground that is fit for the purpose. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I asked a question about design. The architect gave a fair answer. Ok. You can get back on topic now.

[Sven Nilsen]

Your history of never missing the chance to take a potshot speaks for itself. 



Its a tired act.

[John Kavanaugh]

Enjoy the top bunk. You've been a good soldier.

[Rich Goodale]

Kalen


Bandon has 4+ excellent golf courses, just as Disney World has 4+ excellent carnival rides.


Both Orlando and Bandon suffer from the lack of "there there" (per Gertrude Stein re: Oakland, CA).


Rich

The home of golf St. Andrews, with how many courses now...is the original Disney then??


If that's how you're defining it, then so be it.

Kalen


There is a there, there at St. Andrews.  7 golf courses in the town, of varying quality from The Old Course down to the Balgove.  You can walk from a variety of housing options from B&B's to the Old Course Hotel to a real town with 1000 years of history, and real people (from locals, to students, to retirees) who actually don't play golf.  Decent restaurants and pubs.  Fantastic beaches that can be walked at grade, rather than having to abseil down the cliffs.  As for Bandon...


.....golfers that are largely stuck in a Stalag 17/Great Escape environment, where meat loaf is considered to be haute cuisine, and attempted escape from the limited eating and drinking establishments at the resort requires a vehicle to take one into the seriously uninteresting town of Bandon.


IMHO Bandon, OR is the poster child for "no there, there," except for the excellent golf courses a few miles out of the town.


St. Andrews has no Disney characteristics.  It is and was a world class venue, even when it didn't have any golf courses until the Dutch brought Kolven to its Medieval shores.


Rich

[Ira Fishman]

Kalen


Bandon has 4+ excellent golf courses, just as Disney World has 4+ excellent carnival rides.


Both Orlando and Bandon suffer from the lack of "there there" (per Gertrude Stein re: Oakland, CA).


Rich

The home of golf St. Andrews, with how many courses now...is the original Disney then??


If that's how you're defining it, then so be it.

Kalen


There is a there, there at St. Andrews.  7 golf courses in the town, of varying quality from The Old Course down to the Balgove.  You can walk from a variety of housing options from B&B's to the Old Course Hotel to a real town with 1000 years of history, and real people (from locals, to students, to retirees) who actually don't play golf.  Decent restaurants and pubs.  Fantastic beaches that can be walked at grade, rather than having to abseil down the cliffs.  As for Bandon...


.....golfers that are largely stuck in a Stalag 17/Great Escape environment, where meat loaf is considered to be haute cuisine, and attempted escape from the limited eating and drinking establishments at the resort requires a vehicle to take one into the seriously uninteresting town of Bandon.


IMHO Bandon, OR is the poster child for "no there, there," except for the excellent golf courses a few miles out of the town.


St. Andrews has no Disney characteristics.  It is and was a world class venue, even when it didn't have any golf courses until the Dutch brought Kolven to its Medieval shores.


Rich

Rich,


Other than Pebble Beach, I am pressing hard to think of any public access complex in the whole US of A that meets your definition of there there.  The town of Pinehurst is nothing to write home about and certainly is not scenic. Kohler has not much but the resort itself. The Greenbrier and The Broadmoor are grand old resorts in beautiful settings, but the golf although very good does not approach Bandon.


I may never get back to Bandon but it is not because I thought it to be Disneyesque.


Ira

[Sven Nilsen]

Rich:


Your "seriously uninteresting" comment begs the question as to how much time you've actually spent in Bandon proper.  Hours, days, weeks?


If more than a cursory visit, you certainly missed a lot. 


There's no comparison between Bandon with its scant 150 years of history and St. Andrews.  They are different beasts, apples and oranges.  But if you look beneath the covers you find plenty of there, here.


Have you walked the beaches here, or ridden them on horseback?  Taken in Face Rock and the other sea stacks or walked one of the sand mazes old man Denny scratches out every few days?  Ventured out to Bullards Beach to search for driftwood?  Woken up or fallen asleep to the sound of the waves in the Pacific?


How about the rivers?  Ever been up the Elk or Sixes?  Hiked up to Gold and Silver Falls? Or spent a day salmon fishing on the Coquille or Coos?  Or just cruised a kayak on the New River?


Ever been to the Loft for a meal?  Or had a beer with the locals at the Arcade?  Or watched the sun set over the jetty while dining on fresh halibut at Edgewaters?  Or even stopped into the Rolling Pin for a cup of coffee and a scratch made biscuit?


Have you walked through Old Town Bandon and window shopped?  Made it to the farmers market?  Had Fish and Chips on the pier or fish tacos at Tony's?  Stopped into the cheese factory or the town's museum for a slice of the lumber, fishing and dairy history of this region?  Or even checked out the meat counter at Ray's to see if the rib eyes are on special?


Have you ever been thigh deep in a cranberry bog during harvest?  Or seen a concert at the Valley Flora Farm?  What about a hike out to Black Lock, or a stop in Langlois for a hot dog while on your way to Port Orford to see one of the prettiest stretches of coastline you can find in the world? 


Have you ventured even further out to the myriad of places accessible from Bandon?  Ever taken a day trip to Crater Lake or down to the redwoods?  Or had a Pinot Noir at one of the vineyards in the Willamette Valley?  Taken in a football game at Autzen Stadium or checked out the Oregon Country Fair in Eugene?  Done a raft trip or jet boat tour on the Rogue River?  Driven up to Florence or Yachats for the day to explore a bit more of the coast?  Or visited Portland to experience one of the culinary capitals of the world?


There's more here than you know nor care to learn about.  For a town that saw its three primary industries disappear, Bandon gets along just fine.  There's still a good bit of the frontier here in the people and the way of life, and they like it that way.  Well before the resort came around Bandon was a seaside retreat for the inland folk.  When its 90+ inland, the ocean climate is a relief.  And while Bandon doesn't have the history of Seaside, or the artist colony of Cannon Beach, or the influx of Portland money that infects many of the northern coastal towns, it does have it charms.  But you'd really need to spend some time here to figure that out.


You see what you don't get, Rich, is that not every place is going to be everyone's cup of tea.  St. Andrews and the rest of the Scottish golf towns have their particular charms and offerings that appeal to a certain set.  Just like Bandon has opportunities to explore that appeal to a different group.  There's more than a few lucky people in the middle that can appreciate the charm of both.  You don't appear to be one of them, and frankly your opinions come off as not only uneducated, but snobbish as well.


Bandonly yours,


Sven

[Rich Goodale]

Kalen


Bandon has 4+ excellent golf courses, just as Disney World has 4+ excellent carnival rides.


Both Orlando and Bandon suffer from the lack of "there there" (per Gertrude Stein re: Oakland, CA).


Rich

The home of golf St. Andrews, with how many courses now...is the original Disney then??


If that's how you're defining it, then so be it.

Kalen


There is a there, there at St. Andrews.  7 golf courses in the town, of varying quality from The Old Course down to the Balgove.  You can walk from a variety of housing options from B&B's to the Old Course Hotel to a real town with 1000 years of history, and real people (from locals, to students, to retirees) who actually don't play golf.  Decent restaurants and pubs.  Fantastic beaches that can be walked at grade, rather than having to abseil down the cliffs.  As for Bandon...


.....golfers that are largely stuck in a Stalag 17/Great Escape environment, where meat loaf is considered to be haute cuisine, and attempted escape from the limited eating and drinking establishments at the resort requires a vehicle to take one into the seriously uninteresting town of Bandon.


IMHO Bandon, OR is the poster child for "no there, there," except for the excellent golf courses a few miles out of the town.


St. Andrews has no Disney characteristics.  It is and was a world class venue, even when it didn't have any golf courses until the Dutch brought Kolven to its Medieval shores.


Rich

Rich,


Other than Pebble Beach, I am pressing hard to think of any public access complex in the whole US of A that meets your definition of there there.  The town of Pinehurst is nothing to write home about and certainly is not scenic. Kohler has not much but the resort itself. The Greenbrier and The Broadmoor are grand old resorts in beautiful settings, but the golf although very good does not approach Bandon.


I may never get back to Bandon but it is not because I thought it to be Disneyesque.


Ira

Ira


I completely agree with you re: Pinehurst, Kohler, Broadmoor and Pebble Beach, all of which I have stayed and played (the latter--PB--many many times over a 40+ year period.  Nothing compares with St. Andrews, and Bandon is a decent venue if you do not want to go overseas.


Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Rich:


Your "seriously uninteresting" comment begs the question as to how much time you've actually spent in Bandon proper.  Hours, days, weeks?


If more than a cursory visit, you certainly missed a lot. 


There's no comparison between Bandon with its scant 150 years of history and St. Andrews.  They are different beasts, apples and oranges.  But if you look beneath the covers you find plenty of there, here.


Have you walked the beaches here, or ridden them on horseback?  Taken in Face Rock and the other sea stacks or walked one of the sand mazes old man Denny scratches out every few days?  Ventured out to Bullards Beach to search for driftwood?  Woken up or fallen asleep to the sound of the waves in the Pacific?


How about the rivers?  Ever been up the Elk or Sixes?  Hiked up to Gold and Silver Falls? Or spent a day salmon fishing on the Coquille or Coos?  Or just cruised a kayak on the New River?


Ever been to the Loft for a meal?  Or had a beer with the locals at the Arcade?  Or watched the sun set over the jetty while dining on fresh halibut at Edgewaters?  Or even stopped into the Rolling Pin for a cup of coffee and a scratch made biscuit?


Have you walked through Old Town Bandon and window shopped?  Made it to the farmers market?  Had Fish and Chips on the pier or fish tacos at Tony's?  Stopped into the cheese factory or the town's museum for a slice of the lumber, fishing and dairy history of this region?  Or even checked out the meat counter at Ray's to see if the rib eyes are on special?


Have you ever been thigh deep in a cranberry bog during harvest?  Or seen a concert at the Valley Flora Farm?  What about a hike out to Black Lock, or a stop in Langlois for a hot dog while on your way to Port Orford to see one of the prettiest stretches of coastline you can find in the world? 


Have you ventured even further out to the myriad of places accessible from Bandon?  Ever taken a day trip to Crater Lake or down to the redwoods?  Or had a Pinot Noir at one of the vineyards in the Willamette Valley?  Taken in a football game at Autzen Stadium or checked out the Oregon Country Fair in Eugene?  Done a raft trip or jet boat tour on the Rogue River?  Driven up to Florence or Yachats for the day to explore a bit more of the coast?  Or visited Portland to experience one of the culinary capitals of the world?


There's more here than you know nor care to learn about.  For a town that saw its three primary industries disappear, Bandon gets along just fine.  There's still a good bit of the frontier here in the people and the way of life, and they like it that way.  Well before the resort came around Bandon was a seaside retreat for the inland folk.  When its 90+ inland, the ocean climate is a relief.  And while Bandon doesn't have the history of Seaside, or the artist colony of Cannon Beach, or the influx of Portland money that infects many of the northern coastal towns, it does have it charms.  But you'd really need to spend some time here to figure that out.


You see what you don't get, Rich, is that not every place is going to be everyone's cup of tea.  St. Andrews and the rest of the Scottish golf towns have their particular charms and offerings that appeal to a certain set.  Just like Bandon has opportunities to explore that appeal to a different group.  There's more than a few lucky people in the middle that can appreciate the charm of both.  You don't appear to be one of them, and frankly your opinions come off as not only uneducated, but snobbish as well.


Bandonly yours,


Sven

 


Sven


I first played Bandon in 2001, on the opening day of Pacific Dunes, with a bunch of we wing nuts (King, Kilfara, Kirk(?--if so the KKK.....) etc.) and stayed there in a motel in Bandon, OR, given that lodges weren't yet available at the resort.  I played 70 holes on PD with Darren K, and was never as knackered as I felt then.  We played 3-4 days on PD and BD, given that BT and OMac were just twinkles in the wet dreams of Coore, Crenshaw, Doak and Urbina.  I drove up and down from San Jose, where I was living at the time.  Shoe was the caddy master.  I liked the 2 courses, but expected more.  Bandon, OR was a complete dump.


I then went back on one or two (can't remember) President's Putter(s), flying over from Scotland in the 2008-2013 period, and playing all 4 of the tracks, staying for 4 days or so in the main lodge.  I found it all to be chaotic and soul-less.  I'm obviously biased due to my living in Scotland for 30 years, but there was still no there, there.  Nothing even close to a mediocre BUDA gathering, and Bandon, OR was still a dump.....


I will probably not visit again, but I hope you and resort the best, but you have an uphill struggle.  IMHO.


Rich

[Sven Nilsen]

One man's "complete dump" is another man's paradise, except for Florida, the whole state is a dump.


Enjoy the haggis, the Krankies and the midges. 


Sven

[Niall C]

Florida a dump !?! Shurely shome mishtake ?

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

One man's "complete dump" is another man's paradise, except for Florida, the whole state is a dump.


Enjoy the haggis, the Krankies and the midges. 


Sven

Cease Fire, Sven!


I like haggis one day of the year which is Jan 25th (Rabbie Burns' Birthday) because it also celebrates the date that 1st hooked up with my wife.  In New Jersey (the essence of a dump).  Go figure......
As for the Krankies I give them a pass, and as for midgies they are stupid enough to not habitate in the East cost of Scotland, saving their swarms for their fellows in DNA profiles, the Weegies.


I went back to your heartfelt paean of all things Oregonian, and I am very glad that you are happy there.  It is a there, there, but not for me.  Vive la difference.  I did spend good bits of time in the late 70's/early 80's in my real world persona as a strategy consultant.  Two of my best clients were Nike (who funded me through the Japanese zaibatsu, Nisho Iwai, who supplied most of their goods, and asked me to find out, why are these idiots in Beaverton buying so many of our shoes?  I figured it out.  Most of their customers were NOT serious runners but fashionistas!), and also the board of directors of a small bank in Corvallis, one of whom owned a large piece of land near the northern coast, populated by giant Douglas Firs.  He had to cut only one of them per year to fund his family.  Any other cutting was pure profit.  He took me out to his family's camp one day in the middle of the forest, and I was awed.


As for the rest of your list of pleasures, different strokes for different folks.  I have lived most of my life within a 1/2 mile from the ocean, 4 years of which were in Half Moon Bay, CA where I very much enjoyed going to sleep and waking up to the Pacific Ocean waves.  OK golf course at my doorstep, but one of my two greatest posses of golf companions (the other one was in Dornoch).


Finally, I am occasionally hyperbolic regarding likes and dislikes.  I apologize for calling your place a "dump," but the older I get the more I narrow my criteria where I want to spend my money and my time.  I've done Bandon, and am glad to have been there, but I won't probably come back, but who knows.  To be honest, the non-"dump" golfing venues are few and far between.  St. Andrews, yes.  Dornoch yes.  Gleneagles yes, but all of all of these are increasingly busy and/or highly expensive.  High on the Goodale Dump Scale for local ambience include:  Carnoustie, Prestwick, Troon, Golspie, Lossiemouth, Peterhead, Cruden Bay, Montrose, Dunbar.  That's enough before too many friends slate me for their champions.....


Finally, as for Florida, I am >99% in agreement, and given that I have spent much of the last 2-3 years travelling around the state looking for a place to live half time, you have probably not visited the <1% where I put some of my dosh and now stay in the dreik months of the year.

All the very best.

Rich

[Mike Hendren]

I doubt there is a single poster who doesn't wish that he was standing on any of the five first tees at Bandon right this minute. There are few things better than reaching my left hand into the pocket of my rain pants for that grab of tee and ball while turning my back to all the B. S. in this world. 

Instead of "there, there" I prefer Peter Sellers'  "being there."

From behind the desk,

Bogey