Should Mike Keiser be in the Hall of Fame?

[Gary Sato]

I firmly believe he's going to go down as the greatest golf developer in American golf history.


Considering his sole involvement in Bandon, Sand Valley and The Dunes Club and partnerships in Cabot, Barnbougle I'm not sure there is another person that can hold a candle to him?   Tufts at Pinehurst and Morse at Pebble Beach are a distant second.


Thoughts?

[Steve Lang]

   Who's hall of fame?


Frankly, perhaps in "The Art of Getting Money" from retail golfers.

[Gary Sato]

World golf HOF. 


That's unfair to criticize him for profiting for building a world class resort.

[David Wuthrich]

He would get my vote!

[John Kavanaugh]

Herb Kohler is already in the National Kitchen and Bath Hall of Fame. Considering golf is in the toilet he may be a better fit.

[Steve Lang]

World golf HOF. 

That's unfair to criticize him for profiting for building a world class resort.

Gary,
I don't begrudge MK making money, I've met him, played and loved the golf at Bandon, will probably play Sand Valley and Cabot will probably love them too, maybe in 2017..


nobody ever said golf was fair!

[Ronald Montesano]

Is Sand Valley the key to the operation, geographically speaking, for reaching golfers willing to travel a bit? MK will now have a place on the east (Cabot) west (Bandon) and center (Wisconsin) of North America. If we add Streamsong, that makes four new destinations to challenge the traditional ones (Pinehurst and Myrtle Beach come to mind) for the finite dollar of the retail golfer.


Will a visit to a regional MK destination be sufficient to compel a group of retail golfers to book a visit to a more distant locale? Regarding the overseas investments, does the space to build a 4-course (soon to 5? plus short courses) exist? Would it be viable?


I've been twice to Bandon and look forward to heading to Cabot and Sand Valley at some point. I'd also like to get to Streamsong, to contrast how different ownership presents a similar product.


There is no one of his ilk in the hall to date. There are non-pro golfers, including course architects, presidents, and tournament directors


http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/hall-of-fame/search-hall-of-fame-members/


but no specific builder/developers. If one is to be enshrined, it would be hard to argue Koehler over Keiser. My guess is that both will take the step one day.

[BCowan]

Herb Kohler is already in the National Kitchen and Bath Hall of Fame. Considering golf is in the toilet he may be a better fit.

That is some funny shit! 

[Jim Adkisson]

I firmly believe he's going to go down as the greatest golf developer in American golf history.


Considering his sole involvement in Bandon, Sand Valley and The Dunes Club and partnerships in Cabot, Barnbougle I'm not sure there is another person that can hold a candle to him?   Tufts at Pinehurst and Morse at Pebble Beach are a distant second.


Thoughts?

YES...every time I drive south to Bandon (twice a year-minimum for the last 9 years) I thank my lucky stars to live within 4 hours and 17 minutes of the most amazing golf resort ever built...so far...I expect Sand Valley to surpass Bandon in 10 years...

I am looking forward to dealing with the travel to play any place where Mr. Keiser has graced the planet with his vision.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm a little biased because I know him pretty well but what he has accomplished and given the game of golf is far more than several people in the HOF. 


I also agree that criticizing him for the amount of money he has made is wrong. Do you criticize all capitalists?  His macro contribution to golf is huge.  To me he's brought back golf from the Jones, Fazios and Nicklaus and educated the masses on proper golf. His charitable giving is something most people don't see.  He's a major contributor to the Evans Scholarship foundation, The Preserve golf course at Bandon has generated well over $1 million to the Wild Rivers Coast Alliance and he's a major contributor to Save Sharp Park in San Francisco.


Electing him to the WGHOF would be awesome. 

[William_G]

World golf HOF. 


That's unfair to criticize him for profiting for building a world class resort.

+1

why the sour grapes Steve Lang??

also I sometimes get the sense from some PGA club pros they have an inherent resentment against owners/developers

have a great day if you want to

[Joel_Stewart]

but no specific builder/developers. If one is to be enshrined, it would be hard to argue Koehler over Keiser. My guess is that both will take the step one day.

I can't see Herb Kohler making it based on his developments?  The Pete Dye connection and lack of variety hurts, IMHO.

[John Kavanaugh]

Joel,


The people on the GHOF selection committee are tournament players and champions, not resort golfers. Don't underestimate the role Kohler has played in championship golf.

[BCowan]

but no specific builder/developers. If one is to be enshrined, it would be hard to argue Koehler over Keiser. My guess is that both will take the step one day.

I can't see Herb Kohler making it based on his developments?  The Pete Dye connection and lack of variety hurts, IMHO.

What did Pete Dye do wrong?  This post is worse then any Tiger Woods thread.  Loyalty mean anything?


Where was Mike when Ravisloe was up for sale?  Could of made a great LPGA venue and great success story.  Sharp Park across the country is of importance, but Ravisloe in his backyard not?  Some fade muni in cali is more important then a solid track in his back yard?

[Ronald Montesano]

Mike Keiser builds on sand, so Ravisloe would not have been his type of course. I don't think that Pete Dye did anything wrong; I think that the criticism is in the lack of diversity with four courses by the same architect, with a fifth in the works, at a resort.


As far as the "fade muni in California" reference, I've no idea what you reference.

What did Pete Dye do wrong?  This post is worse then any Tiger Woods thread.  Loyalty mean anything?


Where was Mikey when Ravisloe was up for sale?  Could of made a great LPGA venue and great success story.  The cow tie charity is all apart of his legacy, which is only thing he gives a damn about.  Some fade muni in cali is more important then a great track in his back yard?

[J_ Crisham]

but no specific builder/developers. If one is to be enshrined, it would be hard to argue Koehler over Keiser. My guess is that both will take the step one day.

I can't see Herb Kohler making it based on his developments?  The Pete Dye connection and lack of variety hurts, IMHO.

What did Pete Dye do wrong?  This post is worse then any Tiger Woods thread.  Loyalty mean anything?


Where was Mikey when Ravisloe was up for sale?  Could of made a great LPGA venue and great success story.  The cow tie charity is all apart of his legacy, which is only thing he gives a damn about.  Some fade muni in cali is more important then a great track in his back yard?

Ben,
         Where is it written that Mike Keiser is required to salvage a floundering private club that is at best a mid level architectural layout? Having played many rounds over the years at Ravisloe I feel qualified to point out the fact that it struggled to a large degree because it is merely good not great- it is certainly not in the same league as A Flossmoor or OFCC. If you are going to join a club in that area those are the leading candidates. Rav was also religiously exclusive for many years which did not help it's cause as the golf market tightened. Their business model appears to be doing ok with the current ownership.  It was mentioned that Mr Keiser could be doing more and you also mentioned his legacy. As far as charitable giving is concerned , he has been a huge driving force with an organization that I also am involved in albeit at a different financial level , the WGA ESF . Mike has been the Chair of our Match Play Fundraiser for the last 6 yrs. It has raised several million dollars to increase the number of Evans Scholars in school from 820 to 1000. We have or will have new chapter houses at Oregon , U of Wash, Penn State, Kansas, and Notre Dame. His legacy will be all of the caddies who have received world class educations due to his vast generosity. At the end of the day , Mike Keiser has helped so many young caddies and their needy families- how can you even question his legacy?

[BCowan]

....

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm never certain where one Ben-Cowan sentence ends and another begins. I'm also not certain that he isn't a teenager (frequent use of "ur" as exhibit A, for the jury's pleasure.)


That is an awful lot of vitriol to heap onto a fellow who has changed the game for the better. I would suspect that the MK influence has trickled down to a degree that would make Jack Kemp proud. A person cannot be all things to all people, so if Ben Cowan is the only one to feel aggrieved by the MK impact on golf, I'll live with it.


As I recall, MK made a solid effort to give the town of Bandon a 27-hole municipal golf course. It didn't work out, and I'm not privy to enough information to say why it did not. I do know that a great number of people in Oregon owe their livelihood to his investment in that strand. I suspect that the same is in effect in Wisconsin, Cape Breton and other areas where his investment stands.


MK and Mike Young are collaborative for golf's continuity. The golf ecosystem needs Mike Young's courses and Mike Keiser's.

[Jon Wiggett]

Too be controversial, if Keiser gets in then so does Trump probably.

[Mike Wagner]

but no specific builder/developers. If one is to be enshrined, it would be hard to argue Koehler over Keiser. My guess is that both will take the step one day.

I can't see Herb Kohler making it based on his developments?  The Pete Dye connection and lack of variety hurts, IMHO.

What did Pete Dye do wrong?  This post is worse then any Tiger Woods thread.  Loyalty mean anything?


Where was Mikey when Ravisloe was up for sale?  Could of made a great LPGA venue and great success story.  The cow tie charity is all apart of his legacy, which is only thing he gives a damn about.  Some fade muni in cali is more important then a great track in his back yard?

Quite stern words, Ben ... and in exceptionally poor taste.  One day you may have a different perspective if and when you put your OWN dollars at risk ... for whatever the hell you want. 

[Mike Wagner]

I firmly believe he's going to go down as the greatest golf developer in American golf history.


Considering his sole involvement in Bandon, Sand Valley and The Dunes Club and partnerships in Cabot, Barnbougle I'm not sure there is another person that can hold a candle to him?   Tufts at Pinehurst and Morse at Pebble Beach are a distant second.


Thoughts?

Absolutely - arguably the most influential/important person in golf in the last 20 years.


He's also been a great friend to amatuer golf and charities supporting golf.


No brainer.

[Mike_Young]

but no specific builder/developers. If one is to be enshrined, it would be hard to argue Koehler over Keiser. My guess is that both will take the step one day.

I can't see Herb Kohler making it based on his developments?  The Pete Dye connection and lack of variety hurts, IMHO.

What did Pete Dye do wrong?  This post is worse then any Tiger Woods thread.  Loyalty mean anything?


Where was Mikey when Ravisloe was up for sale?  Could of made a great LPGA venue and great success story.  The cow tie charity is all apart of his legacy, which is only thing he gives a damn about.  Some fade muni in cali is more important then a great track in his back yard?

Ben,
         Where is it written that Mike Keiser is required to salvage a floundering private club that is at best a mid level architectural layout? Having played many rounds over the years at Ravisloe I feel qualified to point out the fact that it struggled to a large degree because it is merely good not great- it is certainly not in the same league as A Flossmoor or OFCC. If you are going to join a club in that area those are the leading candidates. Rav was also religiously exclusive for many years which did not help it's cause as the golf market tightened. Their business model appears to be doing ok with the current ownership.  It was mentioned that Mr Keiser could be doing more and you also mentioned his legacy. As far as charitable giving is concerned , he has been a huge driving force with an organization that I also am involved in albeit at a different financial level , the WGA ESF . Mike has been the Chair of our Match Play Fundraiser for the last 6 yrs. It has raised several million dollars to increase the number of Evans Scholars in school from 820 to 1000. We have or will have new chapter houses at Oregon , U of Wash, Penn State, Kansas, and Notre Dame. His legacy will be all of the caddies who have received world class educations due to his vast generosity. At the end of the day , Mike Keiser has helped so many young caddies and their needy families- how can you even question his legacy?

I'd much rather see someone like Mike Young who has designed over 25 course for 3 million or less that are very solid courses and affordable for the masses be in the hall of fame. People can actually afford to play his courses. Many former tour pros play his courses.

Ben,
Thanks for the vote...but just for clarification many of my projects have been more than 3 million with a couple being over 15 mill do don't want to mislead you there....

[Steve Lang]

World golf HOF. 


That's unfair to criticize him for profiting for building a world class resort.

+1

why the sour grapes Steve Lang??



also I sometimes get the sense from some PGA club pros they have an inherent resentment against owners/developers

have a great day if you want to

William_G,


No need to be snarky, but "if you want to", ignore my Reply#5.


Sour grapes?  Are you kidding?  I'll leave that for those in the golf business.  I simply have fun playing golf and enjoying gca interests, no illusions of grandeur here.


Regards,
s     

[J_ Crisham]

but no specific builder/developers. If one is to be enshrined, it would be hard to argue Koehler over Keiser. My guess is that both will take the step one day.

I can't see Herb Kohler making it based on his developments?  The Pete Dye connection and lack of variety hurts, IMHO.

What did Pete Dye do wrong?  This post is worse then any Tiger Woods thread.  Loyalty mean anything?


Where was Mikey when Ravisloe was up for sale?  Could of made a great LPGA venue and great success story.  The cow tie charity is all apart of his legacy, which is only thing he gives a damn about.  Some fade muni in cali is more important then a great track in his back yard?

Ben,
         Where is it written that Mike Keiser is required to salvage a floundering private club that is at best a mid level architectural layout? Having played many rounds over the years at Ravisloe I feel qualified to point out the fact that it struggled to a large degree because it is merely good not great- it is certainly not in the same league as A Flossmoor or OFCC. If you are going to join a club in that area those are the leading candidates. Rav was also religiously exclusive for many years which did not help it's cause as the golf market tightened. Their business model appears to be doing ok with the current ownership.  It was mentioned that Mr Keiser could be doing more and you also mentioned his legacy. As far as charitable giving is concerned , he has been a huge driving force with an organization that I also am involved in albeit at a different financial level , the WGA ESF . Mike has been the Chair of our Match Play Fundraiser for the last 6 yrs. It has raised several million dollars to increase the number of Evans Scholars in school from 820 to 1000. We have or will have new chapter houses at Oregon , U of Wash, Penn State, Kansas, and Notre Dame. His legacy will be all of the caddies who have received world class educations due to his vast generosity. At the end of the day , Mike Keiser has helped so many young caddies and their needy families- how can you even question his legacy?

It isn't required anywhere Jack. I'll respond to ur elitist remarks.  Does quest for community matter?  Does seeing that a solid course in one's back yard stay open over Sharp Park?  Luckily a retired Veterinarian who doesn't play golf purchased it.  Buying it wouldnt of been a big enough headline for him.  What league it is in is besides the point which ur pre requisites for a great course is having ANGC members and major championship trophy rooms into consideration.  Sharp is a trendy PR thing to be involved with.  Ravisloe could of been a field of weeds.  Thanks to someone who really believed in community vs someone who looks for the biggest headlines purchased it.  I get sick of the drooling over this guy. So how about saving a solid course that potential evans caddies have a place to play on their day off?  I'd call that rather noble. Thank God for a retired Vet who cared about his community.


I'd much rather see someone like Mike Young who has designed over 25 course for 3 million or less that are very solid courses and affordable for the masses be in the hall of fame. People can actually afford to play his courses. Many former tour pros play his courses.


As far as the Evans is conserned, no one person is bigger then it. Just because someone has the financial means to give more doesn't mean they are a better person.  Plus it does nothing but boast his reputation.  How about all the retired pros, like ones who taught me and hundred of thousands of kids the golf swing?  Gave many lessons for free and did not seek out awards.  Many people and clubs give to the Evans so please don't use that as ur measuring stick. One of ur other friends involved who pats himself on the back when he can has the audacity to call people Trunkslammers.  Give to charity then call people who can't afford services trunk slammers.  I asked a fellow UK gcaer if they use that term and if they have valet services and all this other US nonsense, he replied no.

Ben,
     My elitist views? Never been called that before. You seem to harbor a grudge against Mike Keiser because he is successful - keep in mind he started a recycled greeting card business out of college, parlayed starting a nine hole golf course , The Dunes Club into a stream of excellent golf courses accessible to the masses. As far as his philanthropic activities go : judge not lest you be judged. My observation is that he and his wife give back greatly to our community. For instance, Lindy sits on the Daniel Murphy Scholarship Board and is extremely active in some neighborhoods that are far from safe in Chicago . I'm struggling to get a grip on why you can't see the good in his deeds. As an aside, the caddies at the clubs in Chicago can and do play on there days off for free at their home club. At Beverly our caddies can play after 5 pm any day if they caddied that day. No need to spend their hard earned money at Ravisloe . Having formed such hard opinions re : Mike Keiser can I ask how many times you've met and visited with him?

[Bill Gayne]

If developers and owners are going into the GHOF then Donald Trump should be included.