Worst of the Masters

[Forrest Richardson]

Whether MacKenzie, Thomas, Ross — or whomever — I'd enjoy hearing your lists of the 2-3 worst courses by the men we place in such high regard 99.9% of the time.

I am referring, of course, to the design as it was created originally, and not how it may have been changed as time marched on.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Forrest, is this a slow one down the middle?

[JakaB]

I don't "get" Pasa....Hate the first hole...don't like the last.

[Forrest Richardson]

First of all, I avoid corresponding with anyone named "Tiger", but I'll make an exception this once.

I thought it would be interesting to see what few courses we might come up with that are the bottom of the barrel of the greats' works.

[Chris_Clouser]

It's funny, in researching Maxwell I wanted to make note of his less than stellar courses.  I would say the three that I found the least inspiring that I've seen that were still in somewhat the shape he left them in were the following.

Lawton CC in Lawton, OK.  This was a routing that he did in one afternoon.  The lack of time on site shows.  The routing really does make the best of what was there, but there just isn't much there.  The work by Tripp Davis to add a second nine and grass the greens helped a little, but the maintenance on the fairways was really not bringing out the few aspects of the design that were there.
Princeton CC in Princeton, KY.  This course is of note because of it being where Maxwell lived for his youth.  The routing was done while working in Michigan at Crystal Downs and U of M and again, I think that was the only time Maxwell saw the site.  The construction was handled by either Dean Woods or Par Woods (I think Par) and no bunkers were used on it originally.  Subsequent work by Jerry Lemons added 9 holes and regrassed the original holes.  A couple of holes like the 11th and the 16th have some nice land to work with, but overall a 2 on the Doak Scale.
Blackwell GC in Blackwell, OK.  Just a totally flat site with only a creek providing any natural interest.  The sand green design was used it as best it could, but again, just not much there.

The one notable design by Maxwell that I would say could be somewhat a downer would be Hillcrest in Bartlesville, Oklahoma.  It has some great holes, but then it has some really just plain holes.  Aside from his premier designs many of these have had a lot of work done to them over time though, so its hard to tell if that is a by-product of him or the people that followed.

There were perhaps some others in the early days of Oklahoma but they have been totally remodeled so I don't know if the quality of the work was from Maxwell or from whomever worked on them since.

[George Pazin]

Chris -

What were the greens like on those courses? Strong Maxwell contours or no?

Forrest -

I think the "Tiger" refers to his LSU brethren.

[David Wigler]

Ross's list would be too long for this thread.  He is credited with a ton of stinkers.  I have no idea how much of this is because of change.  In Michigan alone, how about Monroe CC, Rackham, Dearborn, Rogell, Western, and Grosse Ile.  Monroe, Dearborn, Western and Grosse Ile are probably unfairly categorized as stinkers but they certainly are nothing noteworthy in the history of golf architecture.

[Mike_Cirba]

Other than a semi-cool island green on the 9th, it doesn't seem that Tillinghast spent a whole lot of time thinking about Shackamaxon, which is pretty lifeless.

Perhaps he was on the wagon during that time.    

[Chris_Clouser]

George,

Blackwell and Lawton were originally sand green courses, so the greens mostly have some steep slopes, with the notable exception of the 8th at Lawton.  Which I think was redone by Davis.

Princeton, really has more subtle greens with only one or two that have any noticable "Maxwell Rolls."  

So I would say very tame would be a better analogy.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I consider Arcadian Shores to be the worst of the fine Rees Jones works.  Many seem not to like Sand Pines also though I do not know who has actaully played the course.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Forrest, I am actually John, but the yabba guys would not let me register as such on my office computor.

[Richard Forrest]

3 that I can think of The Pointe at South Mountain, The Pointe at Lookout Mountain & Las Montanas.

[wsmorrison]

For someone whose body of work is very strong across the board, Flynn missed the boat with Monroe Country Club, a nine hole course designed in 1922 in Monroe, NY. and opened in 1924.  Originally private, it is now a public facility (many NYC firemen and policemen are members) on uninspiring land.  Flynn was paid $303.27 to lay out the course and I'm not so sure they got their money's worth.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest,
Leave it up to you to come up with a thread like this.

Ted Robinson-("THE MASTER")

--Tustin Ranch Golf Club aka by Ted in print as "Augusta National of the West"
--Riverwalk Golf Club aka by Ted in print as "Augusta National of the......hurumph!...West.
--Sierra Lakes Golf Club aka by Ted in print as "A Links Course"
--Newport Beach Country Club aka by Ted in print as "Augusta National of the......hurumph again!...West.
--Wood Ranch Country Club aka by Ted in print as the hardest course in California (He may be right)
--North Ranch Country Club the one time home course of Pepperdine alum Geoff Shackelford


There are more by this great master. Many many more.

[A_Clay_Man]

I found Pete's Dunes course in P.S. to not be up to par with other Pete Dye designs I've played. I can't put my finger on why that was and wouldn't rule out the surrounds as having a huge impact. But I do remember too much half pipe type stuff. I also remember that wonderfully difficult almost reverse redan par 3 which happend to have natural surrounds on the front.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tommy,

What is your real answer to this very appropriate question?

[Jason Mandel]

although im not positive flynn did design these courses, the clubs insist he did.

plymouth cc.
green valley cc.

[Pete Lavallee]

George Thomas's first effort at design, Marion GC in Mass., is more suited to steeple chase than golf.

[TEPaul]

PeteL:

Give Little George a break will you? He was only 2 1/2 years old when he designed Marion G.C. and he was just getting into his hobby horse stage---plus the stonewalls directly in front of greenspace give Marion some of the highest "humor factor" in architectural history!

[wsmorrison]

Jason,

Flynn redesigned 9 and added 9 holes to Plymouth CC in Norristown, PA.  Granted the site is constricted and some of the holes are less than inspiring, but this was an existing property that the club wanted expanded to 18 holes...there wasn't much to be done.  I understand that some of the land Flynn wanted (across the street from the very short 10th) was not obtained.  However, Flynn did design a very good 9 hole course in North Carolina named Plymouth CC.  Adam Messix shared his trip there and sent me photos, it looks quite good and the membership loves the place.  I hope the recent hurricane did not do too much damage to the course as it sits near the coast.

Green Valley CC used to be called Marble Hall and was designed as a public facility owned by Flynn and later on Wm Gordon was a partner in the project.  Wm Gordon actually started and ran a Phila public golf association.  The course was designed to introduce the game to public golfers in an area with many old private clubs.  There have been many changes over the years to GVCC and where the course has departed from the original plans (clubhouse moved and driving range put in) the design has been compromised.  The current superintendent is interested in going back to some of the Flynn design principals, expanding the greens closer to the bunkers, and perhaps presenting some changes that would utilize the marble quarry in very interesting ways.  The marble from this quarry was used in Independence Hall, the White House, and other historical buildings of national importance.

[Adam_Messix]

Wayne--

I have been reluctant to post anything under this question because I am not sure where you draw the line in where to question the original architect.  Many courses have been ruined long after the original architect was gone (and usually dead) so I am not sure as to which courses by classic designers I would say that I don't like.  Green Valley in Philadelphia is a great example of a course that has been systemically ruined by it's membership, and many of the members there ADMIT it.  Then again, it's their club to do with as they wish.  

As far as Plymouth CC in North Carolina is concerned, it would be such a neat place if the course were fixed up a little bit and the greens were returned to their original dimensions, which by the way aren't much bigger than they currently are, they just lose a few hole locations.  As a design and seeing what it could be with someone care is amazing.  The powerlines detract too, but as a design, I would give Flynn very high marks for what he did as all of his design features are still in place.  In it's current state, however, I could see where some would not like it.

There was not much damage done to Plymouth during the hurricane other than a few trees being lost (ironically, the trees were planted the year the course was opened.)  Many of the lost trees were slated for removal anyway.  

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

I visited Marion Golf Course when I played Kittansett a few years ago and thought it was coolest, quirkiest little course I had ever seen.  Finding out Thomas did it was a shock....although from a comparison standpoint, I think it would be the weakest link of his courses, whether we love it or not.  

[Forrest Richardson]

That's all? I was surprised to see only so many mentions here. Are you all sure this is it?

[ian]

Forrest,

I have thought about this for a while. I was origionally going to post a Thompson course, but decided that was unfair to them. The reason I was going to choose a Thompson course is he is the only architect where I have seen most of his work. This question is similar to which is the best.

My issue with the question, is due to the fact, that often the architect of record was not actually on site. Also, with Stanley Thompson (for example), we have discovered a growing list of courses wrongly attributed to him, that are actually works of his brother and George Cumming.

Every Master has a miss, because they take chances and that is how we get greatness. Pete Dye fits that description well. Someone who sticks to a proven method will always be good, but never great.

It may not hold the answer that you wanted, but that is my opinion. I have an easier time telling you where I failed as opposed to others, because I know where I had a free hand and where I had a rediculous situation.

[Forrest Richardson]

Thanks for the reply. We all have odd circumstances. Occasionally these end up being jewels of sorts — quite nice when that happens. My opinion is that there are many, many more "worsts" out there. I am no judge as I've seen just a fraction of the work, and have not studied as deep as many here on GCA.

My reason for seeking this information was to see if the regulars who are "in love" with certain Golden Age architects would be critical of their work — even if just a few courses here and there. Not really the case as the posts prove.

However, many here are very quick to be critical of recent work — in fact, that is the order of the day quite regularly. Is this bad? No. It's just interesting. It's like being critical of automobiles: "Detroit can't do anything right in terms of style...where is the passion that we had in the 50s?" But...a look at the 50s shows much to despise! In between the good was a host of awful.