Mid Pines vs Dormie

[Ronald Montesano]

I disagree with this, even though I did walk off Dormie with Jay and head to Southern Pines. I would go straight through the house at Dormie to the 1st tee, just as I would jump from 18 to 1 at MidPines.

Walk off Mid Pines and you want to head back to the 1st tee. Walk off Dormie and head to Mid Pines.

[Matt MacIver]

7-3 in favor of MP for me - the walk and vibe and playability for me, but I'd want a crack at scoring at Dormie, I usually have some good holes but blow up somewhere along the way. DC has grown on me over time.

[Sean_A]

MP... not even close. Dormie is a very fine course with lots of positive attributes. Mid-Pines is possibly the best playing experience in the Sandhills. Not just a wonderful course with a neat collection of holes, but a course with an incredible vibe and a very high memorability factor. As an aside, after a fine afternoon round at Dormie a group of likely suspects on this site conducted a hole by hole match play of the two courses, and MP came out ahead something like 6 and 5.

MP by 5 or 6?  I can't see a result like this even from the most hardened homer  Being most generous, I would put MP +1.  For me, MP badly loses its way between 13 & 16. Regardless...I count Mid Pines and Dormie as great courses.

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

I have heard that C & C are not happy with how they were treated at Dormie but I was listening to Crenshaw on the radio and someone brought up Dormie and he said some very nice things about the course and what a great piece of property it is on.  I think Dormie is refreshingly different from other modern courses in the area and should they get the money to put on the finishing touches it will be right up there near the really good C & C courses. 


Mid Pines is certainly a great Ross course and love playing it but I think the two courses only compliment each other to give one the opportunity the play a really good classical course and a really good modern course.

[Jay Mickle]

Come to the Sandhills, Play Mid Pines, Dormie and Tobacco Road and tell me where else you can find such diversity. If you feel a special affinity with the Land of Donald Ross add in #2, Pine Needles and Southern Pines.
Match Play the Sandhills wins.

[Sean_A]

Jay


I think the Carolinas in general provides some awesome golf and great diversity.  I have been going there for many years and have not tired of the place yet.  It helps that NC is a Ross stronghold, but there are many non-Ross delights to be had. 


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

PLUS ONE and a big fat turkey for gobble gobble day. #JayMickleRepresent

Come to the Sandhills, Play Mid Pines, Dormie and Tobacco Road and tell me where else you can find such diversity. If you feel a special affinity with the Land of Donald Ross add in #2, Pine Needles and Southern Pines.
Match Play the Sandhills wins.

[Dan Gallaway]

Are MP and Dormie pre-requisites to playing #2?  What I mean, is there a greater sense of the Ross course and the C&C resto after having played each of their original designs?  Or is this overthinking it?

[Matt MacIver]

Over-thinking, I think. Each are unique to themselves and worth the experience.


I guess if I had never played any I would play MP, DC and then #2 in that order: easier to harder, sporty to Championship, somewhat manicured to scrubby, undulating to flat, and the best 19th hole last.


Where to fit T-Road I do not know - either before these three, or after!

[David_Madison]

Matt,

I think you have the order wrong about difficulty and playing set-up. DC is by far the easiest. Certainly the most forgiving around the greens, and the widest off the tees while still having decent playing angles. 

MP is harder than #2 yard-for-yard.  #2 at 6600 yards is benign. MP at 6600 yards is beastly. T[/size]here are lots more double bogeys lurking on MP than on #2. I played MP yesterday and it was fun-brutal. Greens super firm, and there were plenty of spots not far from the greens where you had to hit a superb shot just to get it within 25' of the hole, let alone keep it on the putting surface. #2 doesn't have a whole lot of that, and the greens over there are rarely that firm.#2's fairways are wide and generally level, and the ball stays on line where you hit it. MP's fairways are narrower and most are tilted, so it's much harder to drive it to spots that give you good lines into the greens, which also are often far more tilted. As for the 19th hole, is there a more classic spot than that little pub at MP? What golfer wouldn't want that room in their home?

[Morgan Clawson]

I give the edge to Dormie because there's some very unique and dramatic holes and greens that I haven't seen elsewhere.

I think the 2 courses complement each other well because they have a totally different feel and vibe.

[David Davis]

I don't think this is close for me either. Dormie wins hands down even with the convoluted routing. This boils down to turf playability and ability to use the grown game. I seem to remember Mid Pines being on bermuda which is among my least favorite surfaces unless it's totally dormant.


There is an interesting mix of holes at both but far more variation at Dormie Club.

[Matt MacIver]

David M - I think I understand what you're saying when you say "yard for yard" - but distance isn't my problem, it's accuracy, and chipping. If I miss in a green side bunker on #2, with its hard pan, I'm taking an x. Not so on the other two courses. I agree Dormie has plenty of width, more perhaps than MP - but I tend to stray more off-line at DC and lose more balls than at MP. Lost balls = worse scoring for me. I never lose a ball on #2 but still can't beat my handicap, which I've done at the other two.

[David_Madison]

Matt - I agree that Dormie has a number of holes with surrounds that are pretty raw, and lots more hazards where you can lose balls. But the holes themselves, with the more gentle slopes and greater width, require much less precision to successfully navigate. The greens are mostly pretty generous and not terribly animated, and there aren't many spots where putts really get away from you. #2 can be especially difficult when the greens and surrounds are firmed up, but that doesn't seem to happen as often as we'd like. MP's chipping corridors are harder than either of the other two courses, and ball often settle in spots where you have absolutely nothing to work with when trying to get the ball back onto the greens with reasonable putts to salvage a shot. The other unusual thing about MP is the bunkers, many of which extend well above the putting surfaces. Surely you've experienced hitting a shot out there that would land on a green except for the fact that the vertical element of a greenside bunker snares the ball. Makes bunker shots tougher as well.


Here's another way to look at it. If you played Dormie and MP as eighteen 100-yard holes with moderately challenging cups, I suspect that almost everyone would score far better on Dormie than at MP.

[Matt MacIver]

David - I can see what you're saying. MPs greens have more undulation, and challenge - something I do well at since my putting is usually the best part of my game. I'd give the game up if I couldn't putt. I think I said earlier I'd play MP vs D.C. 7-3, which still works for me - and not just because I find it easier but rather because I find it more fun.

[David_Madison]

Matt,


You nailed it. Mid-Pines is just an incredibly fun course with one of the best golf environments anywhere. My son and I played there yesterday afternoon, teeing off at 2 p.m. and wrapping up at last light three and a half hours later, with the sky ablaze with color standing on 18 fairway and looking back towards the tee. I played with my hickories, the course was firm and running like crazy, and every par was hard earned and totally satisfying.


I can't tell you how many fascinating shots we had during our round where we would have loved to drop a bag of balls and just kept hitting, trying different ways to pull off the shot. There just aren't that many courses out there offering so many different ways to have a fun and totally engaging time. #2 is a wonderful, historic course and I like Dormie a lot, but neither offers that special fun experience that I seem to have at MP round after round.

[Anthony Gholz]

Based on playing MP twice two years ago, I would say that MP has to be one of the top 5 DR courses ... period.  Well worth playing multiple times. 


Although I understand why they play the "big" tournaments on two other area DR courses, I love the intimacy of the course routing and watching play nearby as you wait your turn.
Anthony

[Ronald Montesano]

Everything written in this thread has been more opinion than fact. I'll toss out a few facts:


Par-3 holes at MP: 190, 179, 180, 223 from tips; 162, 157, 163, 198 from members.
Par-3 holes at DC: 236, 167, 113, 198 from tips; 198, 135, 99, 160 from members.


For me, that means 3 similar clubs at MP versus 4 unique ones at DC. What makes the 3-pars unique is this: all golfers hit the same distance to the green, assuming they are playing the same tees. It's guaranteed. You cannot make a similar claim on 2 and 3-shot holes. The ideal might be that golfers playing from different decks, hitting different length tee shots, will end up hitting similar second or approach shots. It is never assured.


For par-3 holes, then, one could sustain that DC has the edge over MP.

[Joe Hancock]

Everything written in this thread has been more opinion than fact. I'll toss out a few facts:


Par-3 holes at MP: 190, 179, 180, 223 from tips; 162, 157, 163, 198 from members.
Par-3 holes at DC: 236, 167, 113, 198 from tips; 198, 135, 99, 160 from members.


For me, that means 3 similar clubs at MP versus 4 unique ones at DC. What makes the 3-pars unique is this: all golfers hit the same distance to the green, assuming they are playing the same tees. It's guaranteed. You cannot make a similar claim on 2 and 3-shot holes. The ideal might be that golfers playing from different decks, hitting different length tee shots, will end up hitting similar second or approach shots. It is never assured.


For par-3 holes, then, one could sustain that DC has the edge over MP.

Ronald,


I haven't been to either course, but I could hardly make a decision of which I prefer strictly by yardages of the par 3 holes. What about prevailing winds? What about contours on and around the greens? What about hazard placement and strategy? What about elevation change? And so on...


I'm astounded that anyone would make a preference based on what club they think they should hit, let alone state is the only "facts" presented in the thread thus far.

[Jay Mickle]

Par 3s are a bit more varied than the scorecard would seen to indicate.Because of the pinning scheme hoies 2 and 13 play to different green areas each day to different compass points. Unfortunately 8 and 11 play very similar distances with similar wind but vastly different green complexes.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ronald,


I haven't been to either course, but I could hardly make a decision of which I prefer strictly by yardages of the par 3 holes. What about prevailing winds? What about contours on and around the greens? What about hazard placement and strategy? What about elevation change? And so on...

It's just a beginning. I can't overwhelm the entire DB with my brilliance in one sweeping post.

I'm astounded that anyone would make a preference based on what club they think they should hit, let alone state is the only "facts" presented in the thread thus far.


Don't be astounded. It's not the season for it. If you're not familiar with diversity, you should make the effort. We bitch on this site about RTJ and his similar par 3 distances; I'm saying that a sacred cow (DJRjr) made the mistake of creating three holes of similar distances, which regardless of hazard placement, gives the early edge to a pair of guys who made the effort to create diversity of distance. And, tell me where the other facts are in this entire thread. I haven't seen them. Even when someone discussed chipping corridors, there were no measurements given, no proof positive or negative. Ahem.

[Ronald Montesano]

Par 3s are a bit more varied than the scorecard would seen to indicate.Because of the pinning scheme hoies 2 and 13 play to different green areas each day to different compass points. Unfortunately 8 and 11 play very similar distances with similar wind but vastly different green complexes.

Jay of the Mickles, my friend whose answer to the great question I have not revealed...

This is helpful news, for certain. In your mind, does this variety of green complexes at MP exceed what is in the soil at DC, enough to equal the diversity of distances at the latter? I'm trying to lay out a case here (with all the freaking lawyers on this site, you'd think that they would appreciate this attempt on my part) but welcome others who can provide proof in favor of MP over DC, rather than mere affection/affinity.

[Jay Mickle]

Par 3s: advantage Dormie but not due to variety of length.

[Sean_A]

I don't think there is much between the 3s, though I give Dormie the edge for the same reason I give Dormie the edge in the quality of the course...diversity.  The 98 yarder seals the deal.  Although, not getting a par 3 until the 7th is a drag.  This jams four 3s in ten holes, I am not sure why C&C ever thought that would be a good idea. 

Bottom line for me is both courses have glaring issues which I dislike...yet both courses are plenty good enough to overlook these flaws. 

Bottom line 2 is I see these courses very differently from the tourist or member perspective. While I don't care for the hotel/resort deal as a club member, this is the lesser evil against all the added walking at Dormie.  It wouldn't take me very long to get fed up with that situation.  So right now, I would take Mid Pines as the member club.  If they sorted out the boardwalks/bridges, Dormie would win out for me on both accounts...with all else being equal.  That said, if Mid Pines took out more trees and used the sand in a more diverse manner (rather than left/right throughout), Mid Pines would win out on both accounts. 

Bottom line 3...these courses are quite evenly matched     Neither make my Happy 100 because they are both pricey...moreso with a weak pound.

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I agree that the Dormie Club wait until the 7th for a par three, and the subsequent onslaught of three in six holes, beguiles. The only thing worse might have been a par-three finisher, even if it had been all-world. MP offers balance in the traditional sense, with no run of par 4s longer than three, and only in the final 3 holes. In my mind, that is the type of fact I seek when comparing or contrasting courses.


This next fact set made me chuckle, as it highlights the difficulty in a surface comparison of the two courses:


Mid-Pines: 6723, 6163, 5669, 4913
Dormie:     6883, 6576, 5910, 5180


MP gaps its 4 tee decks by 560, 500 and 750 yards. DC does the same with 300, 650 and 730. None of this means very much to me, other than to reveal the massive jump/fall-off from the beginner/old guy tees to the next set. Clearly, when we are on our way up in the game (from beginner to novice) or down (from early senior to how are you still playing?) the two architects agree. Although, who is to say that Ross is the architect of the 4900-yard tee decks? Were they considered critical in his design days?


I've just wasted your time with a factual musing, so I better have something to say, with little room to say it. Let's look at the par-5 holes. Dormie has 3 of them while Mid-Pines has 4. The 6th hole at Dormie measures a bit shorter than it plays, as it is runs gently uphill. The 10th is that massive affair that runs out, then bends hard left (with wetlands to carry and a centerline bunker of the nose variety to avoid, on the 2nd shot) than finishes with an unimpeded sprint to a marvelously-sized green. It's fairly massive, which goes against the grain of some architects, who reserve larger greens for other-par holes.


The final par 5 at Dormie is controversial. #17 is a visually-appealing hole, with a curious placement of its Hell's-Half-Acre feature. It comes very late in the 2nd-shot range, and causes consternation with players forced to hit less club than they might wish for that middle shot. If you lay up perfectly to the edge of the waste area, about 105 yards (playing 115-120 for the uphill topography) await. Another massive putting surface awaits.


Dormie's par fives don't grab your attention (or your heart-memory) on the first or second playing. I still don't love them. I think that the best par-5 is actually a par-4...the lakeside 8th hole. It has the scorecard length to be a short 5, but the presence of the drive zone, kick-drop makes it an all-or-nothing par four. If you're short, you have a longish approach downhill (albeit a fun one, if you can utilize the sideboard on the high/right edge of the fairway.) If you catch the slope, down you bound, toward a shorter approach.

Heck, the 13th plays 492 and 465 from the back two decks. It might even be a par 5-ish hole! Are there 3 or 5 par 5 holes along Beulah Hill Church road?