News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #100 on: October 02, 2003, 06:24:46 PM »
Lou,
That's a very good point that needs to be brought up sometime to Mr. Hanse. I think the major problem with them is that they always seem to be pretty busy. (Like most architects)

Yes, Rush can come. Only he has to tape his mouth shut at all of the politically correct, environmentely-friendly holes! :)

I would love to have an autograph from Fazio. but just like my ideal of a picture standing arm and arm with Rees Jones--I don't think it's ever going to happen. Who knows. Sand Diego this February maybe? :)

Gyrogolf

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #101 on: October 02, 2003, 08:35:25 PM »
The problem with the media outcry against El Rushbo is that he had the temerity to utter the truth. He was not damning all black quarterbacks - we all saw what Doug Williams did. This does not even touch on the subject of the great Warren Moon. But I must admit that the putrid sycophancy of the commentators and sports writers as they lavish unearned praise on McNabb is just silly.

He is a big burly man who is tough to stop when he runs. But as a throwing quarterback, his stats tell it all. Nobody is making disparaging remarks against the concept of black quarterbacks, only that they tend to get a pass on well-deserved criticism.

It is sort of odd that so many black quarterbacks tend to relay more on athleticism than disciplined passing, isn't it? There is a reason Tommy Kramer never made it in the NFL - and that our collegiate hero Rodney Peete struggled mightily.

Let's leave the conversation about "Slash" for another day. We shall see how Michael Vick's style works in the long run (pun intended).  

Let us say you have a great football team with an excellent receiver corps. Is McNabb your first choice to lead the team? Not even on the first page if you are honest with yourself. It has nothing to do with his color, it has something to do with his scattergun, inconsistent throwing.

Personally, I am a confirmed Libertarian, which disqualifies me from criticism for partisanship. I hate all politicians equally. However, I wonder where the outcry has been when the insipid Peter Jennings or the bulbous Oprah Winfrey made disparaging remarks in the past.

Rush has made little comment because his remarks can be chalked up to the so-called "Dreaded Truth Defense." Now the liberals are trying to tarnish him with an accusation of drug use.

Doing hours of high pressure radio day after day after day is nothing a drug addict - any drug addict - is capable of. His material is timely and entertaining. Though i often vehemently disagree, if Rush was an idiot like Al Franken, the silence would have been deafening.

Now, onto Fazio.

I strongly object to the endless barbs leveled at this man. Fazio has done wonderful work at his home club (Pine Valley) and anyone who has ever seen the magical Shadow Creek knows this guy is no stiff.

Does that make him a good at Doak, Hanse or DeVries? Of course not. Fazio designs for the pedestrian taste and if that is his goal, his stable of designers are the undisputed kings. The voting of panelists from three different magazines bore out my thesis.

I do not go out of my way to play one of his courses because one of my greatest joys in life is coming across an unknown golf course of real strategic merit. Nothing Fazio does is low profile. I do not see hope he will come up with something like Chechessee (C&C) without its opening making a lot of noise.    

I am not willing to even dismiss Fazio as formulaic because I took the time to play Mirabel GC outside of Scottsdale last year. Call me a heretic, but the strategies and hazard placement reminded me of something C&C might have come up with - (of course) without the rough hewn "look" we all know and love.

I promise you that Mirabel is delicious and a better golf course than even Shadow Creek. . . . . .

Don't believe me? Go play it and tell me how many times you changed your mind inthe middle of your backswing off the tee because there were two or more distinct options.

For the record Part II: Given the Communist infiltrated California legislature, Ahnolt will have no more success than would Gary Coleman. Yes, we need a new governor, but look at the egregious damage Gray Davis is doing with last-minute legislation designed to pander to special interests. We might have been better off just letting it ride and throwing out the Dem's at the end of his term. It will take Ahnolt four years just to untangle the mess Davis is creating in his last writhing moments of power.

Sounds a bit like Clinton's Pardongate, eh???
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 11:55:07 PM by Gyrogolf »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2003, 09:06:49 PM »
Tim wrote, "In general, we don't discuss the work done by design associates, shapers or interns for any architect. Fazio, in this regard, gets treated like any other architect, though certainly Tom Marzolf's name is used here fairly often.
Are there exceptions? Just a few. People like Dan Proctor, Dave Axeland and Jim Urbina, for example."

So, Tim, we do or don't? Your comment seems really both ways all at once and then some. I've read it three times. And, even by the third the logic of not discussing who actually did the work would mean that we mention only MacKenzie with regard to CPC, or only Thomas with regard to "his" great bunkering work.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2003, 09:14:13 PM »
George wrote, "...[T]he many critics of the whipping boys are far more detailed and specific in their criticisms than the defenders, who love to paint with broad strokes like this, rather than address said criticism."

OK, allow me to be more specific:

Many regulars on this site condem the work of a firm based on a limited number of projects, irregardless of which associate (or the firm's principal) did the work on the unliked course.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 09:14:35 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2003, 09:21:21 PM »
"....and how he is influencing or changing the classics....."

Regardless of how. He is. And his team will do it all the while that you remain with your head stuck in the sand. Being mostly destructive rather than constructive is a downer. The way to change design behavior is to educate through creative persuasion, not bashing and sarcastic critism. The intillegent GCA-er who wants to make a change recognizes that a lot of golf architecture is right brain effort — right brain effort does not respond to many of the postings here. It tunes it out.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 09:23:32 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2003, 09:27:34 PM »
"...rough hewn "look" we all know and love..."

I agree — and love the look. But how everlasting is this to golf architecture? Have we lost our way falling in love with the details of the edges of features which are, by the grace of St. Andrews, supposed to change and never, ever remain the same?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 09:27:57 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2003, 11:33:02 PM »
I have not read the "Fazio" book...I have been in the same room as it..and have even touched it...but it was so obviously a propaganda sales tool for people who might as well read links magazine..that I am offended to find it quoted on this site.   I expect a little more from you people.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2003, 12:51:31 AM »
Doing hours of high pressure radio day after day after day is nothing a drug addict - any drug addict - is capable of. His material is timely and entertaining. Though i often vehemently disagree, if Rush was an idiot like Al Franken, the silence would have been deafening.

All pissy at Mr. Franken because he took your honey Ann Coulter to task GyroGib?  :o;) ;)

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

DMoriarty

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2003, 01:05:37 AM »
I have not read the "Fazio" book...I have been in the same room as it..and have even touched it...but it was so obviously a propaganda sales tool for people who might as well read links magazine..that I am offended to find it quoted on this site.   I expect a little more from you people.

Very sorry for offending you and for failing to meet your expectations.  You know how important your approval is to me . . . .

Seems I am in a no-win situation. I read his book in an effort to become better informed about Mr. Fazio's work, yet in your eyes I have somehow become less informed by reading it.  

I agree that the book is a propaganda sales tool, but found no reason to doubt the sincerity of Mr. Fazio's views about architecture.  

So now that we agree that it was a propoganda sales tool, why dont you tell me what difference that makes?  After all he signed his name to the book just like he does his courses.  

Why would Mr. Fazio lie about the types of courses he builds?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 01:16:13 AM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #109 on: October 03, 2003, 01:33:52 AM »


Gyrogolf:  

So your standing as a liberatarian insulates you from criticism of partisanship?  I will just assume that this is more of your biting humor.   Just remember that most Libertarians are nothing more than Conservatives who aren't comfortable with organized religion.  

Rush screwed up by trying to politicize something that has nothing to do with politics.  You are wrong to follow Rush back in time on this one.  McNabb is as open to criticism as any other QB, black or white.  (By your theory the sports press should have loved Kordell Stewart.) Just not a lot of reason to criticize a QB who has had quite a lot of success on the field over the past two years, whatever his stats may be.  Also, take a good look around the NFL and tell me if your old tired stereotypes have any support.  Michael Vick isnt the only other black QB these days, is he?  

I am amazed that at you conservatives (yes YOU conservatives) preach a colorblind world based on merits, yet it is you guys who are constantly injecting race into everything.  If McNabb wasnt qualified to be a NFL QB, he would be looking for another job.   My question is, what motivates you to think otherwise?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #110 on: October 03, 2003, 01:48:24 AM »
I have not read the "Fazio" book...I have been in the same room as it..and have even touched it...but it was so obviously a propaganda sales tool for people who might as well read links magazine..that I am offended to find it quoted on this site.   I expect a little more from you people.

It's quote like this that makes me want to import you to California and make a run for govenor.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2003, 01:55:10 AM »
Gyrogolf,
Flattery will get you nowhere, so stop trying to sound like you like Fizzio and get back to your old ways--being yourself and telling them what they don't want to hear. Tell them what you really thought of Shadow Creek and how clean Pine Valley is starting to look!

I need you to "BE" Gyrogolf, not justanother love sick Armenian looking for a place to dump a bunch of rotting lettuce for a quick buck, woo woo!

ForkaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2003, 02:05:12 AM »
OK, Tommy, I have a dream.......

A remake of "Splash" with the following cast changes:

Tom Hanks-->Gib
John Candy-->You
Darryl Hannah-->Guesst
Eugene Levy-->Dave Moriarty
Dodie Goodman-->JakaB

Even Fazio couldn't screw up that opportunity!

Oh yeah, in deference to Tom MacWood, I'll play Schecky Greene.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 02:06:09 AM by Rich Goodale »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2003, 08:31:33 AM »
Dave Moriarty:

I share your view that Fazio's book was not just a sales tool and that it was also an honest attempt to portray his views about golf architecture.

Forrest Richardson:

Generally speaking we DON'T discuss the work of design associates for any architects. I noted the exceptions. There may even be a few more. But, they are just that - exceptions. It is like many other things in life: one can point to exceptions, but that doesn't make the "general rule" untrue.

Anyway, if you would like to give Fazio associates more attention, feel free. Nobody would mind it if you have and share such information. Usually, however, folks here don't know the entire project team when courses are built. So, project managers, design associates, shapers, contractors, summer interns, etc., don't get discussed very often.
Tim Weiman

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2003, 08:40:10 AM »


Why would Mr. Fazio lie about the types of courses he builds?

I think he has ridden the Steve W build a course for a blind man horse a little too long...ie. the myth of framing.   I think he is correct in his assumption that the golf consumer is too stupid to care about the truly great features that are designed in "some if not all by accident" of his layouts...and I think his handlers coached him to "write or sign off on writing" what will sell more projects.   I think he did it out of greed and lack of respect for the pure golfer.  

The bottom line though is...It's just a damn book and unless you play a coffee table redan..it don't make your ball go nowhere it ain't gonna already go.    
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 08:56:59 AM by JakaB »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #115 on: October 03, 2003, 08:48:57 AM »
Tim,

Seems like, in this case, a discussion about the associates and designers would clarify some of the rough and tough statements (broadly attributed) that many have posted here and previously. I'm not really interested in how GCA-ers have organized or limited discussions in the past. That interests me no more than joining a discussion at a cocktail party and immediately asking whether there are "general rules" about how we might continue an intertesting topic.

I believe the validity of any good discussion is centering it around decent information — and complete information. This isnt so much a rule. It's just makes good sense.

By the way, I'm not an expert in the work of Tom Fazio or his design team over the years. I have enjoyed several of the courses created by this team, but I would not be enough of a "student" to share any concrete conclusions about whether a particular decade was a high or low point; whether a particular design associate was "the best"; or whether there were home-runs hit in particular instances.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 08:50:46 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2003, 09:06:50 AM »
Dave Moriarty,

I think you've been misinformed.  We libertarians are actually strung-out conservatives who want to legalize drugs, nothing to do with religion.  So maybe Rush will switch over now?

Anyone else moving to our new free state?  I've got my bags packed baby.  Look for gyro and I to start a "Best courses in New Hampshire" thread.  All private ones of course, we conservatives have no use for public courses...  

T_MacWood

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #117 on: October 03, 2003, 09:07:50 AM »
Doesn't Tom Fazio deserve better? John K (aka JakaB aka BarneyF) might be Tom Fazio's greatest fan and defender on this site, yet he can not (or at least hasn't so far) articulated why he likes his work.

When others attempt to critically analyze and examine TFazio's work, he turns his energies toward descrediting these honest attempts (instead of expressing his own thoughts and impressions). He does so using some twisted reverse psychology portraying his critics as stupid by calling himself stupid (obviously everyone knows he is not stupid, including John himself).

Ironically the same is true with Rees Jones's greatest fans and defenders. With friends like that who needs enemies.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 09:09:37 AM by Tom MacWood »

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #118 on: October 03, 2003, 09:24:13 AM »
Tom,

I don't like being labeled as a fan of his work...I am a fan of the course I am a member and I like the Ventana Canyon private mountain course.   The only other course of his I have played is the Missouri Bluffs and would rather spend my time watching a movie in one of the great St Louis independent film theaters....Doesn't mean I don't like it..I just like movies better.

I have never met Andy B...(Fazio Associate)  but I respect what I know of him.   I have never met you but I respect what I know of you.   It doesn't make me a fan.  I can't explain my motivations even though I know they change day by day.   I will say that I may spend some time trying to rationalize why I have such a large financial and emotional commitment to a given course...its the course...its the course, its not the man behind it or what else he has designed in the past or the future.   Homerism personified.

My "You guys are stupid" take is simply a francised starting point of discussion...I will introduce #3 when this thread dies.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 09:26:55 AM by JakaB »

T_MacWood

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2003, 09:27:16 AM »
What's wrong with being called a fan? And certainly you have been an outspoken defender, and critic of his critics.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #120 on: October 03, 2003, 09:30:32 AM »
I have not read the "Fazio" book...I have been in the same room as it..and have even touched it...but it was so obviously a propaganda sales tool for people who might as well read links magazine..that I am offended to find it quoted on this site.   I expect a little more from you people.

I apologize for my stoopidness, but what the eff are you getting at?  If his own book wasn't a credible source for the answers to the questions you seek, what is?  You have made it clear that the opinions of me and others like Mr. Moriarty, Mr. MacWood, Mr. Weiman, and Mr. Lewis haven't helped you.

Perhaps it is you that is incapable of understanding, and not the rest of the world that is incapable of explaining.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #121 on: October 03, 2003, 09:37:03 AM »
George wrote, "...[T]he many critics of the whipping boys are far more detailed and specific in their criticisms than the defenders, who love to paint with broad strokes like this, rather than address said criticism."

OK, allow me to be more specific:

Many regulars on this site condem the work of a firm based on a limited number of projects, irregardless of which associate (or the firm's principal) did the work on the unliked course.

What I meant is that Fazio's critics are usualy very specific in what they do not like about his courses, at which time other posters resort to generalizations about the posters to defend this criticism. Your more specific criticism is no different in this regard.

Forrest also wrote:  Regardless of how. He is. And his team will do it all the while that you remain with your head stuck in the sand. Being mostly destructive rather than constructive is a downer. The way to change design behavior is to educate through creative persuasion, not bashing and sarcastic critism. The intillegent GCA-er who wants to make a change recognizes that a lot of golf architecture is right brain effort — right brain effort does not respond to many of the postings here. It tunes it out.

I think you're overestimating the effect gentle persuasion would have. I think the only effect that any criticism will have, regardless of its nature, is that it might stop others from employing the services of someone who doees things like this. Someone who's going to alter courses for the worse is going to do it no matter how one chooses to criticise. Thinking gentle persuasion is going to change someone like this is really having your head stuck in the sand.

Barn -

You're picking on me when I've played twice as many Faz courses as you? :)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 09:37:40 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #122 on: October 03, 2003, 09:45:20 AM »
What's wrong with being called a fan? And certainly you have been an outspoken defender, and critic of his critics.

Being a Fazio fan is like being caught singing along to Copa Cabanna....It should be a dirty little secret.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #123 on: October 03, 2003, 09:47:21 AM »
It is sort of odd that so many black quarterbacks tend to relay more on athleticism than disciplined passing, isn't it? There is a reason Tommy Kramer never made it in the NFL - and that our collegiate hero Rodney Peete struggled mightily.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to define "made it" for me.  Tommy Kramer must have been a ten-year starter and at least one time Pro Bowler.  He did compete with Wade Wilson at the end of his career for his spot, but that was during a seaspn where Wilson made the Pro Bowl as well.  I'd guess he was the starter on the 1987 team that lost to the Redskins in the NFC final on the last play when they failed to get to the end zone.

For everyone... about this black quarterback thing... Aren't we TEN YEARS past what Rush Limbaugh was talking about?   Go back and guys like Tony Dungy were converted to other positions post-College and guys like John Gilliam and Doug Williams were grateful to even be given a CHANCE to play.  Today, you still have the occasional like Antwan Randle-El that gets converted, but the NFL tried the same with the lily-white Eric Crouch.  

Andre Ware, Rodney Peete, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Donovan McNabb, and Steve McNair were early DRAFT choices, and the media still doesn't have a pick.  Coaches pick them because they can play.  Period.  End of story.  Some pan out and some flame.  Black AND white, Ryan Leaf.  

Randall Cunningham and Steve Young revolutionized the position and made coaches rethink the mobility vs. pocket issue.  Sure, Fran Tarkenton ran, but he was reckless and desperate when he did.  With Cunningham and Young it was part of the plan.  And it worked.

Some blacks are throwers (Ware comes to mind) and some are mobile to the max (Mike Vick).  NFL coaches are still trying to figure out how to balance the dropback-pocket plays with the rollout/improvise plays.  Remember the fiasco in Buffalo with Flutie and Johnson?!  The short guy never proved he couldn't play and couldn't get the playoff start over the guy that never proved he could.  If the mobile Flutie were black you'd have had some fuel to your argument that the media was trying to make a guy more than he was.

The University of Florida has a quarterback controversy and two or three black qbs are competing for the spot.  It never comes up because people don't care.  I really think we are ten years past the day when NFL coaches saw color when they looked under center.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #124 on: October 03, 2003, 10:01:14 AM »
Gyro:

A quick internet search shows Kramer to be in the all-time Top 50 of some categories.  He had several 3000 yard seasons and was in the 1986 Pro Bowl.