Match I: MINCH OLD V CLEEVE CLOUD V PAINSWICK

[Tony_Muldoon]

I’ve played all 3 but not so recently that I can contribute much here. Thanks to all who contributed it was a riot, just like the courses.
However I despair if these courses don’t belong on the GCA Top 100 list for GB&I.  Fun and options abound and they have the spirit of golf woven all through them. There’s a real danger people discount them as just larky tracks not worth of their time.  I look forward to going back to them over many a more famous course and that’s what it should be all about.

[Robin_Hiseman]

This thread is a lot of fun to read and is bringing back a host of good memories of playing all three courses in the past. I'm certainly very keen to reacquaint myself with Minch Old and Cleeve Hill. It's been at least a dozen years since I saw either.

On the other thread about Minch Old I put up some photos of the old routing. I was at Hawtree when old Fred Hawtree put in the sketches to move the greens near to the roads. It must have been one of the last things he put pen to paper on...and I think it wasn't so much through desire, but necessity. We went down to play the course in 1992, before the course was altered and it was one heck of a novel experience. I remember one of my colleagues pinging a car on the 10th and the blind shot into the 12th (?) over the earthworks, to a green literally on the busy road verge was terrifying.

I'm a fan of Painswick, as may be known, but Cleeve is clearly the best of the three. It's also the most 'formal', though by 'formal' standards it is still extremely left field. The one sadness of the current layout is that the old 18th green has been abandoned. It is still clearly visible on aerials, but was just too close to the footpaths.

I'd love to play them again, so if anybody fancies a trip out, please let me know. If you haven't been before then you really should. Sean's photos are excellent, but the scale of the panorama from on top of Cleeve Hill cannot be captured on film. It is a breathtaking spot.

[Tom_Doak]

I’ve played all 3 but not so recently that I can contribute much here. Thanks to all who contributed it was a riot, just like the courses.
However I despair if these courses don’t belong on the GCA Top 100 list for GB&I.  Fun and options abound and they have the spirit of golf woven all through them. There’s a real danger people discount them as just larky tracks not worth of their time.  I look forward to going back to them over many a more famous course and that’s what it should be all about.

Tony:


The idea that you have to describe it as a "top 100 list" is the problem.


Giving them a grade on the Doak scale would be difficult for me, as well.  The only one I saw in time to rate for Volume 1 was Painswick, which I put in the Gourmet's Choice, but only rated a 5 on the Doak scale.  I think the other two would get 6's, at least.  But they are certainly not for anyone who has an aversion to animal droppings!


In fact last weekend gave me an idea for a new list for the book ... Shi**iest Courses !  I've got to think a bit about the rest of the top ten, but I believe Cleeve Cloud is the leader in the clubhouse.  Thinking out loud [not in order yet]:


Cleeve, Minch Old, Westward Ho!, Brora, Kington, Yelverton, Waverly [N.Z.], Mulranny ... where else?

[Thomas Dai]

In fact last weekend gave me an idea for a new list for the book ... Shi**iest Courses !  I've got to think a bit about the rest of the top ten, but I believe Cleeve Cloud is the leader in the clubhouse.  Thinking out loud [not in order yet]:

Cleeve, Minch Old, Westward Ho!, Brora, Kington, Yelverton, Waverly [N.Z.], Mulranny ... where else?

The last volume of the Confidential Guide!?


Otway, where Jeff W says the sheep wear helmets, Welshpool, Machynlleth, Knighton, Church Stretton, Fort Augustus, various on the Western Isles, Lyndhurst, West Monmouthshire, Tavistock , Clyne, even Pennard to name just a few.


Atb

[John Mayhugh]

Tony,
I understand your sentiment.  I've visited a lot of these courses (including Painswick & Cleeve Hill) and would happily return.  Like Clyde Johnson says in his book on New Zealand courses, if you regard adventure and intrigue over straight hitting and decent clubhouse facilities......



Agree that Clyne & Church Stretton are worth considering, Tom.  This example from Clyne shows why ovine are better golf course animals than bovine.

[Neil White]

I'd love to play them again, so if anybody fancies a trip out, please let me know. If you haven't been before then you really should. Sean's photos are excellent, but the scale of the panorama from on top of Cleeve Hill cannot be captured on film. It is a breathtaking spot.

Robin,


Name a date - I'd be happy to join you.

[Thomas Dai]

I'd love to play them again, so if anybody fancies a trip out, please let me know. If you haven't been before then you really should. Sean's photos are excellent, but the scale of the panorama from on top of Cleeve Hill cannot be captured on film. It is a breathtaking spot.

Robin,
Name a date - I'd be happy to join you.

+1....,Neil types faster than me!
Atb

[Sean_A]

So long as the weather is kind I am happy to give any of the 3 another go...shout a few dates out Doc and we can go from there. 


Tom


While I think Cleeve is the best and my favourite of the lot, all three courses are sufficiently different and wonderful in their own ways. I am inclined to Doak em' all at 5 or 6, unequal, but even.  Therein lies one problem with the Doak Scale.  Most people will and do equate the number with a quality score.  I never thought this was or should be the case, but perhaps I am wrong.


Ciao 

[Thomas Dai]

Nice to read where Tom would place each course on the DS scale, if only for interest, reference and discussion purposes.


Now, if instead of comparing the three courses on a sequential hole-number by hole-number basis, we assume a par-70 and pick the 4 best par-3's, the 12 best par-4's and the 2 best par-5's to make a composite 18-hole course which holes would be included?


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Nice to read where Tom would place each course on the DS scale, if only for interest, reference and discussion purposes.


Now, if instead of comparing the three courses on a sequential hole-number by hole-number basis, we assume a par-70 and pick the 4 best par-3's, the 12 best par-4's and the 2 best par-5's to make a composite 18-hole course which holes would be included?


Atb

What was interesting for me is how we all saw the course holes so violently different I put my 1,2,3 for each course and some of 3s were others 1s etc, I suppose that's good. I love Painswick but most of the world do not indeed most golfers within 40 miles have not even played it. If we have an inter-club match away it is hard to get a team, not many would have it in the top 20 of the 40 courses in Gloucestershire and yet here is everyone doshing out Doak 5s and 6s. The same is said about Minch Old and Cleeve Cloud though to a lesser degree to which I don't recall anyone saying it's bad. Minch has three golf courses and 1200 members, I expect only 200 of them play more than 1 round on the old.


Whilst I love Painswick and scored it very slightly higher it has a number of really sh1te holes and a number of really sh1te greens that fall front to back and are the ruiners for most people. I agree all things considered Cleeve Cloud is the better course, it does not have a duff hole, in many ways perhaps only Minchinhamptons 14th is a duffer. Painswick for me has the 1st, 5th, 7th, 10th and 18th as mingers, that aside I actually still enjoy playing them and TD found great affection for 5 & 10.
We have some cottages very close to Minch and Painswick and offer our Stay n Play Cotswold Quirk Package, in 5 years I have only sold two! and that's at £129 for 2 nights accomadation and 3 rounds of golf Midweek.


Thomas mentioned adding Stinchcombe Hill to the skins game the best holes for me are 5th, 6th, 9th,13th. None of those win a skin over P, MO, CC.


Composite course.
Best 4 par 3 holes: 8th@ Minch; 16th@ Minch; 6th@ Painswick; 15th@ Painswick
Best 2 par 5 holes: 4th@ Cleeve Cloud; 9th@ Painswick
Best 12 par 4 holes: 5th@ Cleeve Cloud; 7th@ Cleeve Cloud; 13th@ Cleeve Cloud; 18th@ Cleeve Cloud; 5th@ Minch; 9th@ Minch; 11th@ Minch;15th@Minch; 17th@ Minch; 2nd@ Painswick; 4th@ Painswick; 16th@ Painswick.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

It is interesting that we should first see a difference in how many par holes should be selected.  In truth, I wouldn't include any par 5s in my truly best holes selection.  Its also interesting that we have six differences of holes, with for me Painswick have a much brighter role in three more par 4s selected and a par 3.  A big part of the difference in total are the blind holes which you seem to dislike. For me its hard to undertsand how a guy can like Painswick and Cleeve Cloud, yet not embrace the blindness...very strange that.

5 Best Par 3s Daily Tee:

Cleeve Cloud 16

Minch Old 8 & 16

Painswick 6 & 10

1 Best Par 5 Daily Tee:

Painswick 9

12 Best Par 4s Daily Tee:

Cleeve Cloud 5, 7, 12, 13 & 17

Painswick 3, 4 & 13

Minch Old 9, 11, 13 & 17

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

It is interesting that we should first see a difference in how many par holes should be selected.  In truth, I wouldn't include any par 5s in my truly best holes selection.  Its also interesting that we have six differences of holes, with for me Painswick have a much brighter role in three more par 4s selected and a par 3.  A big part of the difference in total are the blind holes which you seem to dislike. For me its hard to undertsand how a guy can like Painswick and Cleeve Cloud, yet not embrace the blindness...very strange that.

5 Best Par 3s Daily Tee:

Cleeve Cloud 16

Minch Old 8 & 16

Painswick 6 & 10

1 Best Par 5 Daily Tee:

Painswick 9

12 Best Par 4s Daily Tee:

Cleeve Cloud 5, 7, 12, 13 & 17

Painswick 3, 4 & 13

Minch Old 9, 11, 13 & 17

Ciao

I see quite a lot of greatness in say the 2nd @ P . You get fooled off the tee, its quite wide, yet because that green is angled front to back and right to left, you need to be up the left, that way you can play a skilled shot to get close. Play up the right fairway and everything is against you, that's a great hole to me, one that fools the fool. 10 is crap. Quirky yes, Fun yes if luck goes your way, but that green!! I remember putting with you and you can putt in almost any direction and hole your putt because of the bowl. It is very Mickey Mouse. But I do sorta like it. Confusing?
The par 5 9th is awesome, the drive how much you risk to cut off, the lay up or go for it. The green defended by rises and falla of +/- 12". Too many fall away greens are probably its real biggest negative, you can't pitch to the greens very often and the approaches are not good enough condition to get a fair bounce. If the 7th and 14th greens were re-done I think that would improve things. Years ago maybe 1990, I re-did their 15th green and advised on taking trees out (needs doing again). I like the beauty of the 4th, one of the few places in the South West Scots Pine self seed, the track that bisects the 3rd, that pit at the 6th, coffin at 8th, the 11th green, the quarry at 14 and 16 and the simplistic 1920 setting of that 17th green. There is a lot to love at Painswick and I have been mouthing off about it for 43 years, but take 100 golfers, give um a free ticket and only 5 will play Painswick and 95 will play The Players Club. We are back to that minor opine which many (including me) belong.

[Sean_A]

Adrian


I agree Painswick relies too heavily on fallaway greens without really offering a good way to hold up approaches. I also think the course is too narrow for the terrain with long summer rough.  Thats my problem with #2...go left and its dead easy to lose the ball.  Go right and there is a quarry.  Lay back and the approach is nasty over the rise of a hill.  The penalty for a slight misjudgement long is often lost ball...thats too harsh given the penal nature of the drive.  The hole is far tougher than its yardage suggests, but its the nature of the difficulty I am not totally sold on. 


I also agree that most people would prefer to play a modern course compared to Painswick, but so what?  It doesn't really matter to me what most people like...I don't need to sell a course nor do I need to attract golfers. 


Ciao

[Robin_Hiseman]

Sean, Neil, David et al

I could do this coming weekend (Oct 15 or 16) or the latter part of the week and weekend 27-30 October...or both!

Personal preference would be Cleeve first up, especially if the weather is good. Must be a dozen years since I was last there. Way overdue another look.

[Thomas Dai]

Sean, Neil, David et al
I could do this coming weekend (Oct 15 or 16) or the latter part of the week and weekend 27-30 October...or both!
Personal preference would be Cleeve first up, especially if the weather is good. Must be a dozen years since I was last there. Way overdue another look.

Weekend of 15th-16th Oct or latter part of a week might be best (the later Oct weekend coincides with school half terms so likely to be more folks on the hills and commons).


atb

[Sean_A]

Sean, Neil, David et al

I could do this coming weekend (Oct 15 or 16) or the latter part of the week and weekend 27-30 October...or both!

Personal preference would be Cleeve first up, especially if the weather is good. Must be a dozen years since I was last there. Way overdue another look.

Doc


Its possible I could join you on 16 October or 27-28 Oct.  I am playing Kington on 15.10, so it may be a stretch to do CC on the 16th...much would depend on the weather and my ankle. 


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Nice to read where Tom would place each course on the DS scale, if only for interest, reference and discussion purposes.


Now, if instead of comparing the three courses on a sequential hole-number by hole-number basis, we assume a par-70 and pick the 4 best par-3's, the 12 best par-4's and the 2 best par-5's to make a composite 18-hole course which holes would be included?

There are a lot of fine short holes between the three courses, and on closer analysis, it's not surprising they should stand out as much of the man-made interest [even if it was made in the Iron Age] lies around the greens.  There are not a lot of fairway hazards of note, so the more provocative terrain at Cleeve Cloud and Painswick gives them an edge on the longer holes ... indeed, it's surprising that Minch Old has as many good ones as it does.


I'm pretty much in agreement with Sean's list of the best 18 holes, but I would put up either the first or second at Minch Old as the other par-5 hole, and maybe the 1st at Cleeve Cloud if you wanted a third one to balance all the par-3's.

[Sean_A]

Tom


Yes, Minch Old does quite well I think. The problem with the course is not the strong holes, but the weaker holes.  I know you like to discount this way of looking at courses, but there is something to be said for a solid pack of supporting holes to keep courses flowing.  The weaker holes can carry a great overall value to a course...I think this is the case for Cleeve Cloud and  Painswick to a lesser degree because at least some of P's not so wonderful holes have wonderful aspects about them.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Tom


Yes, Minch Old does quite well I think. The problem with the course is not the strong holes, but the weaker holes.  I know you like to discount this way of looking at courses, but there is something to be said for a solid pack of supporting holes to keep courses flowing.  The weaker holes can carry a great overall value to a course...I think this is the case for Cleeve Cloud and  Painswick to a lesser degree because at least some of P's not so wonderful holes have wonderful aspects about them.

As we were playing, I did not think Minchinhampton had many weak holes at all.  #1 and #2 were both long testing holes, full of interest around the greens, hardly what I would call weak even if you could hit away without much concern.  #3 was a bit of a lull, as was #5 ... after that it was all good to very good.  I guess #12 was kind of weak, but after a poor drive I had to get my second shot up over 15-20 cows lying at rest all over the fairway and rough, so that was memorable, anyway.

[Bill_McBride]

Adrian

It is interesting that we should first see a difference in how many par holes should be selected.  In truth, I wouldn't include any par 5s in my truly best holes selection.  Its also interesting that we have six differences of holes, with for me Painswick have a much brighter role in three more par 4s selected and a par 3.  A big part of the difference in total are the blind holes which you seem to dislike. For me its hard to undertsand how a guy can like Painswick and Cleeve Cloud, yet not embrace the blindness...very strange that.

5 Best Par 3s Daily Tee:

Cleeve Cloud 16

Minch Old 8 & 16

Painswick 6 & 10

1 Best Par 5 Daily Tee:

Painswick 9

12 Best Par 4s Daily Tee:

Cleeve Cloud 5, 7, 12, 13 & 17

Painswick 3, 4 & 13

Minch Old 9, 11, 13 & 17

Ciao

I see quite a lot of greatness in say the 2nd @ P . You get fooled off the tee, its quite wide, yet because that green is angled front to back and right to left, you need to be up the left, that way you can play a skilled shot to get close. Play up the right fairway and everything is against you, that's a great hole to me, one that fools the fool. 10 is crap. Quirky yes, Fun yes if luck goes your way, but that green!! I remember putting with you and you can putt in almost any direction and hole your putt because of the bowl. It is very Mickey Mouse. But I do sorta like it. Confusing?
The par 5 9th is awesome, the drive how much you risk to cut off, the lay up or go for it. The green defended by rises and falla of +/- 12". Too many fall away greens are probably its real biggest negative, you can't pitch to the greens very often and the approaches are not good enough condition to get a fair bounce. If the 7th and 14th greens were re-done I think that would improve things. Years ago maybe 1990, I re-did their 15th green and advised on taking trees out (needs doing again). I like the beauty of the 4th, one of the few places in the South West Scots Pine self seed, the track that bisects the 3rd, that pit at the 6th, coffin at 8th, the 11th green, the quarry at 14 and 16 and the simplistic 1920 setting of that 17th green. There is a lot to love at Painswick and I have been mouthing off about it for 43 years, but take 100 golfers, give um a free ticket and only 5 will play Painswick and 95 will play The Players Club. We are back to that minor opine which many (including me) belong.

I remember driving into the coffin at Painswick's 8th.  Some folks were walking along the edge of the rough and took up the cry, "He's in the coffin!"   Great memories of Painswick.

[Thomas Dai]

As we were playing, I did not think Minchinhampton had many weak holes at all.  #1 and #2 were both long testing holes, full of interest around the greens, hardly what I would call weak even if you could hit away without much concern.  #3 was a bit of a lull, as was #5 ... after that it was all good to very good.  I guess #12 was kind of weak, but after a poor drive I had to get my second shot up over 15-20 cows lying at rest all over the fairway and rough, so that was memorable, anyway.

Some Minch' Old thoughts - note: the course has only 2 greenkeepers and no irrigation system -


1st - very open aspect from the tee but angle is important, lots of interesting humps and hollows near the green - I remember a recent quiet "wow!" from a playing partner as this green appeared.
2nd - good hole, blindness, dead ground, earthworks, interesting green
3rd - a hole easy to take for granted, alignment from the tee not easy, green looks bland but is a gentle dome shape
4th - bit of a sleeper hole. Diagonal crossing earthworks. Usually downwind and difficult to stop the ball on no-irrigated green, easily misjudged
5th - not a favourite hole of mine, 'luck' needed around the green
6th - fine hole, would have been terrific when played over the road and quarry before the H&S changes. Nice use of high banked diagonal crossing earthworks
7th - a very under-rated hole IMO. Needs positioning from tee and care into green. Huge deep hollow close on left side of diagonal green. Old hole before H&S changes must have been a bit special.
8th - super par-3. A hole not easily forgotten.
9th - first class hole. Pretty open from the tee but positioning to the left is key to get an angle to a very, very good greensite
10th - nice little small green par-3 as is. Pre-H&S hole over quarry to green by road must have been pretty epic
11th - sunken green is unusual/memorable but there are other par-4's at M-O that seem less interesting but actually provide more challenge
12th - very open aspect from the tee, need to miss "Tom's cows!". When played over the high banked earthworks to the pre-H&S greensite this would have been an really epic par-5
13th - strong hole with high diagonal crossing earthworks plus road on the right. Green a bit bland
14th - bland par-3 unless hit left over earthworks. Former hole was par-4 played over high diagonal earthworks and two roads.
15th - a better hole than it first seems. Tee used to be back over the road on a different angle. Now played over the earthworks from the tee, a surprisingly long carry into a decent wind, need the correct angle for the shot into a green that slopes away
16th - delightful par-3 over a quarry with the road behind. Very sloped green. Miss the green anywhere or be on the green but at the rear and is probably going to be a bogey that's written on the card
17th - nicely angled tempting short par-4 over quarry workings. Pre-H&S the tee used to be back over the road. Surprisingly long carry into a decent wind, left side looks best but gives no shot as green is over slight mound and falls away to the rear.
18th - straightforward uphill par-4, some humps and hollows around the green

Summary - 4 blandish holes - 3rd, 5th, 14th and 18th - whilst the others all seem to have something to offer.

Atb

[Mark Saltzman]

Add one more to the tally of golfers that have played all three - and I may be the only Canadian to have done so, a true honour!


I find it interesting that the consensus seems to be, individual hole tallies notwithstanding, that CC is the clear frontrunner.  I think it may just show how impacted one can be by the surrounding circumstances on a single play, but I didn't overly enjoy Cleeve.  There were some fantastic holes but I found it went jumped past quirky to extreme, and that I didn't overly enjoy.  Now, I played the course on a rare 30+ degree day as the backside of a 36 hole day with Kington.  No doubt the wild elevation changes were made more noticeable by tired legs.  Add to that a fierce wind and conditions so firm that the ending location of a golf ball could be a long way from where one would think.  By way of example, my tee shot over the aiming pole on the second... ended up in the first fairway.


Anyways, I am going to try and catch up on this thread.


Hole 1: Painswick's hole is something of a disaster so the competition is between MO and CC.  The shaping around the first green at MO is thrilling, especially after the utter dullness of the opening tee shot, but I think CC wins this battle.  The quirk of an opening blind tee shot combined with tilted land where the golfer must play to the high side for an ideal angle of approach adds an extra element of thought.  1 skin to CC

Hole 2: I suspect many will give this point to CC as there is no doubt the strategy of the hole is sound (playing up the left, near the tall grass, for the ideal angle into an interesting benched green) but as mentioned the hole crossed the line of quirk for me.  Comparing the blind tee shots at MO and PW, I'd give the edge to PW and comparing the excellent approaches leaves little between them.  But if I have to pick one, 1 skin to PW

Hole 3: Three quality par-4s, with the edge going to PW. Cleeve's short four brings with it the fear of making a 6 while the short four at Painswick carries the joy of a possible 3.  1 skin to PW

[Thomas Dai]

Mark,


You've posted numerous excellent photo tours herein. Did you happen to do photo tours of these courses or any others on this trip?


Atb

[Sean_A]

No doubt the wild elevation changes were made more noticeable by tired legs.  Add to that a fierce wind and conditions so firm that the ending location of a golf ball could be a long way from where one would think.  By way of example, my tee shot over the aiming pole on the second... ended up in the first fairway.

Mark


It is extremely common for drives to end up in the "1st" fairway.  If that is an example of the extreme, I don't think Cleeve is your cup of tea.


Ciao

[Mark Saltzman]

No doubt the wild elevation changes were made more noticeable by tired legs.  Add to that a fierce wind and conditions so firm that the ending location of a golf ball could be a long way from where one would think.  By way of example, my tee shot over the aiming pole on the second... ended up in the first fairway.

Mark


It is extremely common for drives to end up in the "1st" fairway.  If that is an example of the extreme, I don't think Cleeve is your cup of tea.


Ciao

Sean,


ignoring my personal preference, if it is common to have tee shots played on the bold line end up in the first fairway, doesn't that make the hole much worse?  What's the point of risking a tee shot that flirts with the trouble if you're going to be left with a terrible angle that is substantially the same as a cautious tee ball?