Match I: MINCH OLD V CLEEVE CLOUD V PAINSWICK

[Sean_A]

This post was promted by a throw-away comment I made to Doak...Cleeve Cloud is considerably better than Minch Old. I like both courses very much and think each should be seen to see wha what can be achieved on a small budget in terms of delivering a golf experience greatly heightened by aesthetics.  I thought since Painswick is nearby, why not face off all three?  BTW...Doak was convinced CC is the better course, but he reserved judgement 

Before starting, I think it important to note that all three courses make for a wonderful trip through the Cotswolds not least because all three are very different.  Painswick is very hilly and very tight.  It features an outstanding set of 3s...world class really and several greens which run away from play.  Plus, there are no bunkers.  Cleeve Cloud is very hilly, though not as extreme as Painswick.  There is a ton of space to hit the ball, several blind drives, some cracking green sites and several par 3s which require a carry.  The bunkering is light and at times a hinderance to the design draped over excellent terrain.  Minch Old is much flatter than the other two, but it does have some excellent green sites.  There are a few surprises along the way, including several road crossings.  Perhaps what is most enjoyable is the buzz of activity around the common including traffic. 

Scoring is SKINS, but no carry over holes!

#1.  Painswick should be docked a skin because its one of the worst opening holes in golf...people think Nerwick's is bad!  Cleeve Cloud opens blindly and gently with its only par 5, which is surprisingly difficult to reach in two.  Minch Old too opens gently with a par 5.  I like the shaping around the green enough to give it the skin.  1 SKIN TO MINCH OLD. 



#2. Hemmed in by a quarry, P's downhill short 4 features a green which runs wildly away toward lost ball trouble in the rear. M's 2nd is a fairly dull par 4.  Cleeve Cloud is the clear winner here because of the green and the fact that this 310ish par 4 plays incredibly long...many is the time I have been short hitting a wood second!  Suffice it to say the hole is uphill, but it also runs madly right so the player who can keep tight to the left gorse is onna high.  1 SKIN TO CLEEVE CLOUD



#3. I really like M's short 4 working up the hill to a tiny green, same for CC's, which is pver more interesting terrain, but I gotta go with Painswick here.  The drive to the ever-increasing quarry in a bid to reach the downhill green is a ton of fun.  1 SKIN TO PAINSWICK



I welcome alternative views!

More to follow.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

This post was promted by a throw-away comment I made to Doak...Cleeve Cloud is considerably better than Minch Old. I like both courses very much and think each should be seen to see wha what can be achieved on a small budget in terms of delivering a golf experience greatly heightened by aesthetics.  I thought since Painswick is nearby, why not face off all three?  BTW...Doak was convinced CC is the better course, but he reserved judgement 


Before starting, I think it important to note that all three courses make for a wonderful trip through the Cotswolds not least because all three are very different.  Painswick is very hilly and very tight.  It features an outstanding set of 3s...world class really and several greens which run away from play.  Plus, there are no bunkers.  Cleeve Cloud is very hilly, though not as extreme as Painswick.  There is a ton of space to hit the ball, several blind drives, some cracking green sites and several par 3s which require a carry.  The bunkering is light and at times a hinderance to the design draped over excellent terrain.  Minch Old is much flatter than the other two, but it does have some


Ciao

For me: Hole 1 goes to Minchinhampton, cracking hole with great contours around the green. Hole 2 goes to Painswick, it is quite uphill from the tee, but at the green it falls away. I like the natural strategy of best play is left from the tee. I also really like the 2nd at CC it was a close call. Hole 3 Painswick same reasons as you. I like CCs 3rd and Minch Olds 3rd is not bad. Hole 4 was a tough choice for me Painswicks 4th is a delight but the 4th at CC is a cracking par 5 hole and edges it for me, quite hard to find something so natural at 500 yards. Hole 5 was clearly to CC, Painswick's 5th is a real howler (not that I would change it and I enjoy playing it but it is sh*Te). Minch 5th is pretty good too. The 6th is a no brainer in favour of Painswick, CC hole 6 is a cracking par 3 and unlucky to run into the winner. Minch 6th is now dissapointing, in my days there you beefed from this side of the road and it was a cracker, not now though at almost 100 yards shorter.  after 6 holes I have Painswick 3 Cleeve Cloud 2 Minchinhampton 1. Hole 7 winner I went with Cleeve Cloud a tough par 4 and a great green complex, in fairness I can only remember Minchs old 7th, but I can't think the new spot is beter. I like Painswicks 7th personally but its a rotten hole really, the green pushes the ball to the same place, the front to back and left to right cants mean you can't skillfully get a ball on  the left side. Hole 8 winner was Minchinhampton a beautiful par 3 over broken ground. I have a soft spot for the 8th at Painswick, love the coffin down the right from the tee and the sunken green. Cleeves 8th I find dullish. The 9th is a no brainer for me and that goes to the brilliant Par 5 at Painswick, the best hole on the course for me. This green complex I have tried to replicate this and aspects of it in my own work. The strategic options and lay ups and the 'on the green in two' option prove you don't need sand bunkers. Mich 9th is one of the duller holes for me and the same for Cleeve although you are on the top of the Cotswolds around this point. after 9 holes I have Painswick 4 Cleeve Cloud 3 Minchinhampton 2 The 10th I gave the skin to Cleeve Cloud. Much as I like the Painswick par 3 it is too goofy and a hole that for most people is a ruiner. Minchs old 10th used to be wow, it is not bad now. At the 11th it was a close call between Painswick and Minch, but I went for Minchinhamptons sunken green. For my 12th it was a close call with them all though none of them really deserved it...perhaps this was a draw or maybe edged toward Painswicks long downhiller.After 12 holes I have it 4-4-3 with one even. 13 went to Cleeve Cloud fairly easily, though Painswicks 13th is still a nice hole and one of its toughest. 14 I also ticked to CC, Painswick is ruined by an awful green that once again you can't skillfully get close to . Minch's 14th is not very good at all. At 15 I went with Painswick's (Boatofgarteny) Par 3, Minch and CC were close seconds, and not much between any of them for me After 15 holes I have it Painswick 5 Cleeve Cloud 5 Minchinhampton 3 Painswicks 16th is beautiful and wins this battle though Minchinhamptons 16th would win if it was almost any other number, Cleeves 16th between the grip is pretty good too. 17 belongs to Minchinhampton a great short 4 and places you must not miss, Cleeves 17th is quite quirky whilst the 17th at Painswick is not a drive I care for, though i like the approach. The 18th belongs to Minchinhampton with Painswick a clear last, I might be doing Cleeve a mis-service because i have not played CC enough but I remember too much cross slope. Painswick 6 Cleeve Cloud 5 Minchinhampton 5.... so all pretty close Painswick has more bad holes hard to know if I was it's king if I would change things, maybe make the 14th green flatter, do something with 18, 7th green perhaps.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting thread so thanks for starting it.


Not sure about skins being the best method of analysis what with carry-overs etc.


Might also be worth including Stinchcombe Hill in the comparison, especially when their hay is out.


Atb

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - fascinating to me for this reason: in your approach to this 'match play' you again demonstrate your essential democratic/egalitarian spirit, i.e. you simply refuse to rate/rank courses in extreme or stark terms, and instead seem to like to bunch your favourite courses (of all kinds) into some kind of "very good" middle-ground.  When I ask about a comparison between Scottish and non-Scottish courses, you land as close to the middle ground as possible (while still answering the question); in your version of the Doak scale, you don't have 0s or 10s, but a very large number of 1s and a few 2s, which approach does highlight your preferences but just barely; and in this version of "skins" with no carry overs and only clear-cut winners, you trend towards an 18 hole match that will end in a draw/tie. All in all, your implicit message seems to be a variation of Tom Paul's Big World Theory: something like "There is a lot of good golf in the world -- go and enjoy as much as your pocketbook will allow, but don't lose your head over it"!

I am glad to see that my choice (in the Arble Eclectic 18) for the 2nd hole, Cleeve Cloud, has found approval in your eyes.  I can only add that I expect Painswick to win the 6th hole...

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

This is going to be an interesting thread as we "talk amongst ourselves."  Are there more than four of us who have seen them all to compare?


I will stick with Sean's format since the decision of whether to see a course is made on the basis of how many outstanding holes it has, not how many weak ones.  On that basis, I'll score the first six holes:


1.  Give both Minch and Cleeve a half point.  Both are good openers, though the tee shot at Cleeve was frightening with all the dog-walkers and other people around the tee on a busy Sunday morning!
2.  I'm not as big a fan of the hole at Cleeve as Sean is.  I would give no points here.
3.  Agree on Painswick.


4.  Painswick and Cleeve are both excellent holes, I'd give a half point to each.
5.  ditto #4.
6.  The par-3 at Painswick is a great hole, easy winner.  Too bad for Minch and Cleeve as both are among the better holes on those courses.


So my score through six holes is:  Painswick 3, Cleeve 1.5, Minchinhampton 0.5


This is getting weird, because by the time I was done with #6 at Minchinhampton I was thoroughly smitten, and I've got it down for only half a point so far!  But I suspect it will do much better after #7, whereas Painswick will fall away after its quick start.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Yes, I really like the shaping around M's 1st green and the surfce itself is not without interest.  The hole also has the wall to the right of the fairway which is interesting.  I hereby revoke my decision and reward Minch Old with the 1st hole.  Besides, its only fair that Painswick should pay for that rotten opener.  However, I cannot concur with the second.  Like the many blind drives at CC, Painswick suffers from too many greens sliding away from play.  In the case of the second, there is no forgiveness for the inevitable long approach...ticked for poor architecture. 

Pietro

Well, I don't see courses in nearly the stark way as the Doak Scale outlines.  I can't imagine very many 9s & 10s and given the nature of what I tend to play, I can't imagine many 3s and below.  A lot of lower rated courses are very cheap to play so it seems kind of pointless to offer a number.  If the decent ones are close enough to where one is, it isn't much of  foul to give them a go.  When I was in Ohio some weeks back we played a local course that wasn't up to much architecturally, but there were some high points and the course was in good nick....the best conditioned greens I played on the trip!  Would I recommend it, no.  Would I play it again for $30, yes, if the right people are playing.

MINCH OLD V CLEEVE CLOUD V PAINSWICK CONT

Thru three holes, 1 skin each. 

#4. This is a no-brainer call for me.  Painswick's reachable par 4 greensite steals the show.  Though I really like CC's longish two-shotter because its wide open, but that is merely an illusion.  1 SKIN TO PAINSWICK
 


#5. We now come to a trio of good holes.  P's severely uphill short hole is by far the most dramatic playing into some sort of ancient fortress.  MO's 5th features a cool green, but for me CC's offering is superior.  The greensite is sublime.  The fairway flows downhill right, but there are natural bowls and cuts which will see a straight drive remain straight.  Finally, the use of gorse is very well done without crowding play.  Excellent architecture trumps a dubious natural hole which a huge percentage of golfers can't finish.  1 SKIN TO CLEEVE CLOUD





Thru five holes: Minch Old 1, Painswick 2 and Cleeve Cloud 2

Ciao

   

[Niall C]

I believe I've played them all once as have a number of gca types who were on the same trip organised by Adrian. Looking forward to being reminded of the courses.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Adrian mentions on the specific thread about Minch' Old - see

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48765.msg1515513.html#msg1515513 - how
H&S has changed the course in many places over the years


This is something I always ponder when playing the course given I've worked out where the location of the former tees and greens used to be when the roads were considerably quieter. To the green above the  steep drop on the 2nd. Left of the quarry on the 7th. Over the quarry on the 10th. Over the Iron Age embankment on the 12th. Over the roads on the 14th, 15th and 17th etc.


Still that's not what this exercise is about though and Painswick has changed to. Has Cleeve?


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes Painswick had a hole between the current 3rd and 4th hole, played down into the quarry left. 140 yarder. I never played it. It became a NLE in 1971 and was replaced with a tiddler 18th which played from about where the tees are now but up 90 degrees towards the church and it had two bunkers, the only ones on the course. This 18th was replaced I reckon mid 80s by the present 18th.


Cleeve Cloud has had a few changes, when I first played it 1974 I reckon, the first 6 holes are as now but Hole 7 was a drop hole par 3, 180 yarder, real cracker. Hole 8 went back up the hill 290 yarder (but not driveable) the green was set in a quarry, it will all still be there but overgrown was a great hole very linksy. After Hole 11 (now the 9th) you used to play a straightish hole quite a good one 400+ I think to what is now the 12th green. They now play a loop of 3 holes and end up at what was the 12th green (still is) but from a different angle. I think the reasoning for the change was the steep walking back up what was the old 8th.....I think the 18th green has been moved much forward but I am not 100% on that. Also there was a time when there was a hole between the 1st and 2nd. It was an uphill par 3 not much of it. I can't think which hole was dropped out. Winding the clock even further OTM laid out the original holes but not many of them remain, some can be made out left of current 17 and 18, I think the course boundary in those days did not include the current long 1st or 2nd hole and the opener was a short hole then you played the 3rd (as hole 2).

[Thomas Dai]

Yes Painswick had a hole between the current 3rd and 4th hole, played down into the quarry left. 140 yarder. I never played it. It became a NLE in 1971 and was replaced with a tiddler 18th which played from about where the tees are now but up 90 degrees towards the church and it had two bunkers, the only ones on the course. This 18th was replaced I reckon mid 80s by the present 18th.

I think by zooming in the location of the old 4th par-3 is still visible on this satmap - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8044071,-2.1932084,18z/data=!3m1!1e3


As to Prestwicks former tiddler 18th, I believe this green is now the chipping green.


The other end of the Painswick course interests me, the end by the 8th green-9th tee.


The old 'clubhouse' is alledged to have been the Royal William pub/hotel. But the Royal William must be circa 600 yds from the current 9th tee, which when it was the original (David Brown?) 9-hole course, would have presumably been the 1st tee. A rather long walk (horse-n-cart ride?) to the 1st tee.


I can't comment at all on any changes at Cleeve but here's a satmap - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9427937,-2.0187108,16z/data=!3m1!1e3


Atb

[Tom_Doak]

The other end of the Painswick course interests me, the end by the 8th green-9th tee.

The old 'clubhouse' is alledged to have been the Royal William pub/hotel. But the Royal William must be circa 600 yds from the current 9th tee, which when it was the original (David Brown?) 9-hole course, would have presumably been the 1st tee. A rather long walk (horse-n-cart ride?) to the 1st tee.

Surely, if Painswick originally started from the far end, they would not have gone down the hill to the present clubhouse and then back up the present first?  A couple of holes at the other end to get from the clubhouse to the start of today's holes would have made going down the hill unnecessary.


Some of Minchinhampton's older green sites are still quite evident on the ground today, though it's hard to imagine playing to the original 12th which was pretty much right on the road.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom Doak said:  the tee shot at Cleeve was frightening with all the dog-walkers and other people around the tee on a busy Sunday morning!

Craig Disher and I had to time our tee shots on #1 just right to make sure we didn't kill someone. We also played on Sunday and there were so many walkers and families about it was almost impossible to play. We almost considered skipping the opening shot and just start from the fairway, but suddenly the "sea" parted and we were safely away! It was one of the most nervous situations I have ever experienced on the first tee.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom - The original Painswick was just 9 holes starting at todays 9th then 10 - 11 - 12 - 4 -5 -6 -7 -8.


I can't remember when it went to 18, but they hand the same shack till about 1980!


Minch Old course
1. Always been the same hole though was a long 4 465yards
2. Green used to be further left and lower it was a cut n fill squared jobbie though long n thin, big marker post at the back
3. Pretty much the same
4. Pretty much the same though it was the 1st for a while (early days) and 3rd was 18th.
5. I realised tonight the hole has been moved 50 yards to the left, green is still same place, tee used to be behind green 4 now I think it drives over the 4th.
6. Big change in that the drive used to be over the road and broken ground. this was the stroke 1 hole I think
7. Big change with the green left side of the quarry and much longer as it was
8. No change
9. Lengthened quite a bit but same hole
10. Completely new the hole has been turned 180 degrees basically
11. Same hole
12. Green moved out 50 yards to the left, was previously blind and a really strong hole.
13. Think this is the same.
14. Was much longer and a par 4. I think you crossed a couple of roads, had a very flat dull green site
15. Was 50 yards longer I think, real tough hole with the tee behind the road
16. Same hole
17. Tee used to be other side of the road, it was a bit downhill and at 270 yards and a dogleg, it was within reach for most people though a tough shot to hit the green, sensibly you played left leaving an approach just like today.
18. Same hole

[Sean_A]

Tom Doak said:  the tee shot at Cleeve was frightening with all the dog-walkers and other people around the tee on a busy Sunday morning!

Craig Disher and I had to time our tee shots on #1 just right to make sure we didn't kill someone. We also played on Sunday and there were so many walkers and families about it was almost impossible to play. We almost considered skipping the opening shot and just start from the fairway, but suddenly the "sea" parted and we were safely away! It was one of the most nervous situations I have ever experienced on the first tee.

Interesting, maybe I am used to it, but the 1st doesn't frighten me at all.  I figure golfers out right are fair game.  I am far more frightened coming up the second! 

MINCH OLD V CLEEVE CLOUD V PAINSWICK CONT

Match stands at 2 Cleeve Cloud, 2 Painswick & 1 Minch Old after five hole.

#6.  This hole is merely a formality.  Painswick's long par 3 is a comfortable winner, though I must say the club desperately needs to hack down the left side.  This is lost ball territory akin to Ballybunion.  1 SKIN TO PAINSWICK





#7.  While I really enjoy P's short 3, I am usually going to favour good 4s over good 3s.  The temptation to drive toward the CC's green rather than play the selective dogleg is nearly too much to bear.  However, the green only works for those with the patience to come on from the left.  The green site is very fine and the slopes/contours are one of the best of any three courses.  Minch Old is just starting to get warmed up!  1 SKIN TO CLEEVE CLOUD






#8. I spose most would plop for P's par 5, but its a dull drive and an extremely dangerous blind approach, but to a very cool green.  CC's 8th is merely average, but MO's offering is definitely one of the best greens on any of the three courses...and that goes a long way with so many flatish greens.  The mounding to the right is lovely as well.  1 SKIN TO MINCH OLD



#9. Well now, I think MO's time has come.  In a way this medium length par 4 reminds of CC's 4th.  There is fairway to be hit, but only the left side works for approaching the green.  Cleverly, one can't really figure this out until he has launched his approach through the green    I think the pic clearly shows the problems of coming in from the right.  1 SKIN TO MINCH OLD



After 9 holes, I have the match all-square at 3 holes apiece.  Minch Old: 1, 8 & 9; Cleeve Cloud: 2, 5 & 7; Painswick: 3, 4, & 6

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Painwicks club history states that the course was extended to 18-holes in 1906-7 with a clubhouse put up at the village end of the course (ie the opposite end to the Royal William). So if there was originally a circa 600 yd gap between the 1st tee (now the 9th) and the Royal William it was only necessary to walk (ride?) it for a few years.


Nice summary of the alternations to Minch' Old by Adrian. Some course beforehand, with a few pretty significant carries unless alternative routes from tee-to-green, something possible on a flattish open commonland course, were played by individual players. Even tougher with older technology clubs and balls. I've seen photos, I'm struggling to recall exactly where, of the course circa WWII time when many of the roads across the common were still unpaved/non-tarmac (rut iron time!?).


Playing golf on common land includes the golfing-hassle that can be walkers, dog walkers, horse riders, kite flyers, mountain bikers, kids playing games, folks having picnics, parked cars, even icecream vans. Some are the daily exercise patterns of locals and some are more visitor related so more prevalent at weekends, bank holidays, school holidays and during warmer weather. Minch' Old, due to it's huge open area, doesn't suffer to much but Painswick does and I guess Cleeve does as well, perhaps because they are both hilltops and views attract visitors.


Atb

[Sean_A]

How many folks think Painswick might be a better course as the original 9 holer? 

Adrian, how did the par 3 down into the dip between the current #3 & #4 fit into the orginal plan?  Or was the hole added later then dropped? 

MINCH OLD V CLEEVE CLOUD V PAINSWICK CONT

After 9 holes, I have the match all-square at 3 holes apiece.  Minch Old: 1, 8 & 9; Cleeve Cloud: 2, 5 & 7; Painswick: 3, 4, & 6

#10. It pains me to think MO's wee 10th doesn't make the cut because in many ways it is the perfect par 3 in it a most unassuming manner.  CC's 10th is quite good and a bit unusual for a drop shot par 3, however, P's 10th takes the biscuit.  A blind 140ish yarder over a hill to a green smaller than some picnic blankets.  1 SKIN TO PAINSWICK



#11. This is a very tough choice!  All three holes are very good, though CC's shortish par 4 with a skyline green is not quite up to scratch.  P's crazy short 230 yard par 4 zig zagging to a blind green somehow makes complete sense.  That said, MO's plays over or around a stand of trees to a sunken green.  Nope, I can't call a winner here...no blood.

11 Painswick


11 Minch Old


#12. MO's par 5 is very pleasant.  P's long downhill short hole is good, but the green site for CC's long uphill par 4 is exceptional.  The green itself is also one of the best on any of the three courses.  This was not a hard decision.  1 SKIN TO CLEEVE CLOUD





#13. Wow, another tough choice as all three holes are very good.  MO's short par 4 along the road is subtle and sublime.  P's 4 has the wow factor of a great green, but it falls well short of CC's majestic greensite.  All good holes, but I must go with originality in this case and on that score CC is the clear choice.  1 SKIN TO CLEEVE CLOUD









#14. MO gives us a rather dull par 3.  P's par 4 is the most dramatic, playing over a quarry.  CC gives us its third banger hole in a row.  I am not convinced that any of these holes are as good as several others, but I have to think P's is the best here. 1 SKIN TO PAINSWICK


After 14 holes, I have the match...  Minch Old: 1, 8 & 9; Cleeve Cloud: 2, 5, 7, 12 & 13; Painswick: 3, 4, 6, 10 & 14

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

How many folks think Painswick might be a better course as the original 9 holer? 

Adrian, how did the par 3 down into the dip between the current #3 & #4 fit into the orginal plan?  Or was the hole added later then dropped? 

I like holes 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17....so only 1 and 18 are weak. On the original bit 5th and 10th would be too much doubled so I think better as 18.


The Par 3 4th was added when then the course went to 18. I have a picture of it 1930s I think on my facebook if anyone wants to take and re-post. So the 4th was the 5th, 5th the 6th ect ect. The course ended at the now current 17th.


As there were more cars the 4th became dangerous as it was close to a car park area, the green was tiny and maybe 15 yards deep, you probably had to play it long into the bank. I suspect it was a bit too quirky and hard to really play a good shot and get it close. I have hit shots into it, in fact I think a few (you maybe) did at the gathering a few years back.

[Tom_Doak]

My scoring to catch up:


7.  Cleeve Cloud a clear winner.
8.  Minch Old a clear win.
9.  Minch Old, per Sean.


10.  I had this one halved between Painswick and Minch Old.  Perhaps if my tee shot at Painswick had been holed, instead of stopping six inches short, it would have tipped the scale.
11.  I'm not a big fan of the 11th at Painswick.  Minch Old is the clear winner for me here.
12.  Agree with Cleeve Cloud, though I might have given Painswick's drop-shot hole a half if I was feeling generous.


13.  I would halve this between Cleeve Cloud and Minch Old.  Cleeve's green is indeed unique, but could have played much better if they'd used their fill a bit differently.  I really liked Minch's hole where a long hitter may be tempted to go blind over the big ditch off the tee.
14.  Would halve this between Cleeve and Painswick.
15.  Would halve this between Cleeve and Painswick.  [I may be giving Minch Old an unfair penalty here -- we got rained out on this tee so I really didn't see the hole very well, and we only went back out to look at 16 and 17 after lunch.]


So in that stretch, I had Minch Old slightly up, 4 holes to 3.5 for Cleeve.  Painswick 1.5.


Totals so far:  Cleeve 6.5     Minch Old 4.5     Painswick 3    One halved, though I'm regretting not having given #2 to Minch Old, I just remembered its lovely cross hazard short of the tilting green.

[Thomas Dai]

..... Cleeve's (13th) green is indeed unique, but could have played much better if they'd used their fill a bit differently. I really liked Minch's (13th) hole where a long hitter may be tempted to go blind over the big ditch off the tee.

Tom,


In all the times I've played Minch' Old only one playing partner has successfully played to the right of the earthworks on the 13th hole. I wonder who!? Shame about the rain and thunder from the 14th onwards though.


With regard to the 13th at Cleeve, what could be done differently with the fill?


Atb

[Ben Stephens]

At Adrian's request here is a old photo of the original 4th hole par 3 at Painswick - NLE

[Sean_A]

I seriously doubt the powers that be would allow much different to be done with the 13th green.  The fortifications are rather old!  Besides, altering the fill would almost certainly reduce the uniqueness of the green and that wouldn't do at all.  Its surprising that the green ws allowed to be placed in this area at all.  The designer must have squashed down the rear rampart to create the green surface...I guess there weren't as many conservationists around back then.

MINCH OLD V CLEEVE CLOUD V PAINSWICK CONT

After 14 holes, I have the match...  Minch Old: 1, 8 & 9; Cleeve Cloud: 2, 5, 7, 12 & 13; Painswick: 3, 4, 6, 10 & 14

#15. MO's par 4 is not much to write about.  Painswick's par 3 is a very attractive drop shot which needs serious tree clearing and CC's 15th plays over a quarry to a green which is set too far back from the edge.  None of the holes is completely satisfactory, however, MO dodges a bullet.  NO BLOOD.

#16. Yes, another very tough decision because all three holes are very good.  MO's short hole plays beautifully over a broken ground to a naturally raised green.  P's driveable par is perhaps a bit too easy to drive.  CC's long uphill par 3 is by far the most dramatic, but the greenside bunkering lets the hole down a bit. Despite this, the sense of joy and excitement the tee shot offers is enough to carry the day.  1 SKIN TO CLEEVE CLOUD



#17. Once again, three good holes!  My instinct is to give this one to CC for its design audacity of a blind drive between two quarries.  However, recently the greenside bunkering was altered to grave effect.  P's medium length par 4 over and near roads to terrain falling heavily right is a butt puckering drive.  M's short 4 is a clever bugger legging right...it will catch out many a golfer having a bash at the green.  CC should be the clear winner here, but I let the bunkering on the last hole slide and I am not gracious enough to do it twice.  That said, the other two options are certainly not better; NO BLOOD.

17 Minch Old


18. Well, none of the finishers is a show stopper, but CC's is at least beautiful and dramatic and longer hitters do have to worry about carrying two ditches.  P's par 3 is a decent hole for the bad rap it gets, but MO's 18th is pretty dull.  1 SKIN TO CLEEVE CLOUD



I have the match

Cleeve Cloud: 2, 5, 7, 12, 13, 16 & 18 = 7 skins

Painswick: 3, 4, 6, 10 & 14 = 5 skins

Minch Old: 1, 8 & 9 = 3 skins

No blood three holes.

I must say Minch Old did better than expected, though Painswick as a buffer helped matters.  But it is very clear to me that Cleeve Cloud is very much the superior course.  That said, none of these three would make my top 100 GB&I and only Cleeve Cloud would make my Happy 100...and very well placed at that.  Yet, these are the sort of courses which can't really be measured with a quality stick.  These are courses which dig a bit deeper than and for the golfer who makes the connection, any one of Painswick, Cleeve Cloud or Minch Old has the power to alter how one sees and what one wants from architecture.  For folks who are looking for the essence of golf, it is hard to imagine three courses in such close proximity which are more suitable for the journey. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

What have they done to the greenside bunkering on Cleeve 17?

[Sean_A]

Adam


In the past few years, can't remember excatly when, another bunker was added so there are now bunkers front left and right of the green.  When I first started playing there was a bunker in a pit well short and left of the green.  That is now an empty pit.  There is now practically no room to bounce a shot in from near the quarry...which is where the terrain naturally takes tee shots.  I guess its not as bad as the bunkering on 16, but what a stupid idea.  I think a decent case can be made that neither hole should have sand, though I really liked the old bunker short and left of the green.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for posting the photo of the NLE par-3 at Painswick Ben/Adrian. Some hole.


As to changes over the decades, if only H&S requirements hadn't strangled Minch' Old and it was still as described by Adrian above.


Having had a look at the NLE Minch' Old tee-fairway-green locations and playing angles and envisaged how the holes would have played, well many of the NLE holes would have been absolute crackers and pretty damn challenging even if played with modern equipment.


Not sure you could say the same thing about Painswick. Can't comment about Cleeve.


"If only" however, two small words but with big consequences, and not just golfing consequences.


Taking not just the holes and the layouts themselves into considerstion but also the terrain, the ease/difficulty of walking, the other common users, the animals, the wind, the potential for lost balls, playing delays etc which course would folks prefer to play on a regular basis?


Atb

[Niall C]

I recall seeing that old green site at Painswick and have a vague memory that some of us might have actually hit some balls to it. Certainly nice but not in the same league as some of the other par 3's at Painswick I'd have thought.

Niall