Hazeltine National's old routing....

[Yannick Pilon]

I clearly remember reading a feature article on the changes made to Hazeltine National's routing prior to the 1991 US Open.


Might have been in Golf Digest..prior to the 1991 US Open. If I recall correctly they even had a diagram showing the old routing underneath the new one.


I'm curious, because today, as I look at the aerial of the course, I can't help but feel like there's something wrong with those last three holes (the club's real 16, 17 & 18th), as if the flow of the routing starts to come apart after the fifteenth green. Is it just me, or the seventeenth is just lost between 16 and 18. Even 16, as much as I like it individually speaking, seems a bit out of the way after 15....


Am I the only one not that excited about this course hosting the Ryder Cup, or any other major for that matter? Having never played it, I might not be qualified to critique it properly, but it appears to be a bit unidimensionnal.


Any thoughts? Any info on that routing?

[Shane Wright]

Yannick, 


When I first heard about the routing change, I had a similar opinion until I played it a couple of months ago.  The front nine crosses over from #5 to the old #15, which will be #6 for the Ryder Cup.  #7-9 are the old #16-18. 


The explanation made perfect sense to me.  Mathematically, rarely does a Ryder Cup match go to the 18th hole.  The majority of the matches are decided on #16 or #17.  The old #16 and #17 at Hazeltine simply cannot fit enough spectators.  At the most recent PGA, the old #7 played very interestingly as a risk/reward par 5 and #8 par 3 played as the hardest hole vs. par.  They have now made these two holes #16 and #17 for those reasons as well as the ability to have tons more spectators. 


It seems like a major change.  But if one didn't know anything about Hazeltine and played the course, the routing change would not be noticed with the exception of the one minor cross over after hole #5. 


At the end of the day, it was the right move for the Ryder Cup. 

[Jeff Bergeron]

Honestly, should this golf course be hosting one of golf's most important events?

[Greg Chambers]

Honestly, should this golf course be hosting one of golf's most important events?

Does it matter?  It is hosting the event, and you're not going to change that by next weekend.  The people involved have worked extremely hard in preparation for the occasion, and I wish them well.


So instead of throwing out ridiculously stupid, unwarranted rhetorical questions, why don't you try to embrace the occasion.  And if you can't, at least add something intelligible to the discussion...rather than just throwing out malicious pot shots. 


Jeez

[Yannick Pilon]

I agree with you Shane. The routing change for the event seems to be a decent idea, at least, money wise!


What I am wondering about is the routing that was in place prior to the 1991 Open before they created the 16th hole along Lake Hazeltine.


The existing 16th in itself, appears to be a fine hole.  I like the diagonal carry off the tee and the challenge that the ditch creates on the other side of the fairway.  However, in creating this hole, it appears to me that the flow of the golf course was weakened after the fifteenth green.  There's a bit of a walk to reach the 16th, after 15, and two awkward walks between 16 and 17, and 17 and 18.  I would like to see the original routing and figure out why or if the actual configuration is better.


YP

[Jason Topp]

Setting aside the financial impact, it is a big improvement from a pure golf standpoint.  The best holes on the course will now be 10, 15, 16 and 17. 

15 is a 400 yard dogleg par 4 that will encourage a variety of tee shots, from a driver to just in front of the green to an iron to the corner. 

16 will be a reachable par 5 with about $10 million worth of tents viewing the action at a pivotal moment in almost every match.

17 is a nasty par 3 - particularly if the wind is heavy.  Players bailing out left will need to work hard to beat an opponent who hits his first tee shot in the water and the second on the green.  The pitch from the left is to a skinny green sloping towards the water.   

The normal 16th (7th for the Ryder Cup)  looks great in photographs but plays pretty mundanely unless the wind is strong.   Most people will hit a club they can get in the fairway and a wedge onto the green.

The walk is slightly disjointed but not much.  13 and 4 are right next to each other.  The green to tee walks on the other holes are shorter than you would find at most courses. 

 

[Mark Pritchett]

I am excited to see Hazeltine host the Ryder Cup, though I am hardly surprised the cognoscenti here is skeptical.  The course has had dramatic finishes in the last two majors it has hosted and is a solid test for the professionals. 

[Howard Riefs]

Background...


http://hazeltinenational.com/2014/12/hazeltine-course-changes-for-the-2016-ryder-cup-matches/


http://www.golfchannel.com/media/hazeltine-course-routing-changing-2016-ryder-cup/


http://www.twincities.com/2016/06/27/tom-lehman-hazeltine-ryder-cup-layout-makes-sense-but-a-little-disappointing/






Standard routing:


Ryder Cup routing:

[Greg Krueger]

Pre 1991 #17 was a short par 4 and #16 was a long par 3 that was a dog leg par 3! (It had a huge tree on the left that you had to go around). The green complex on 17 is the same green that was there when it was a par 4. I wasn't happy when I first heard about the routing change but it has grown on me and I now think it is for the best.

[Shane Wright]

Hazeltine is a very walking friendly course and the greens to tees are nominal.  Most won't realize or believe this, but daily play at Hazeltine is very strictly held to 4 hours or less.  They take this very seriously. 


 I believe the course is setup well to avoid the spectator congestion and maximize the potential drama on the course.

[Jason Topp]

I just reread the original post - you were referring to the original 15, 16 and 17.  The routing is a bit strange.  15 to 16 is not bad - you just go down a hill.  To get from 16 to 17 you basically walk up the corridor of the old short par four so it is a bit of a hike. 

[Adam Warren]

When a routing is changed for an event (which seems to happen more and more in recent years) I always wonder a couple things:
1. Was the GCA, or any GCA consulted about the change?
2. What does the GCA think about the routing change?
3. How much consideration does the club make to making this change permanent?

We can't ask RTJ, but I believe Rees did some work here a while back.  Any comments from him?

[Eric LeFante]

The routing change has really grown on me. The Ryder Cup is unlike any other major event because of the fan participation and the match play format. If they left the original routing only about 1,000 fans could be on the 16th hole, perhaps the last or second to last hole of the match. That would not have felt like the Ryder Cup in my opinion. They are expecting 45,000 fans and almost all of the them will want to be on the 14th - 18th holes late in the day.


I am not naive enough to think that money had nothing to do with it: many corporate tents will be around the new 16th. But thousands more fans get be on that hole and that's what the Ryder Cup is all about.


I think the holes work from a strategy perspective as well. The new 16th is a risk/reward par 5 and the new 17th will play anywhere from 110 - 180 with water right. Should make for a great finish.

[Matthew Essig]

I found (so I am assuming it is correct) this interesting stat:


Since 1979, the hole where 501 Ryder Cup matches have ended:
11th: 2
12th: 4
13th: 12
14th: 30
15th: 51
16th: 104
17th: 102
18th: 196

[Ken Moum]

Any thoughts? Any info on that routing?

I was there for the 1970 US Open, and there were plenty of things that probably needed to be changed.

#7 was a virtual 90* dogleg and not such a good hole.

#16 was a par three that could play as a dogleg, due to a tree.

#17 was a very short par four that was blind, with a pond in front of the right side of the green, and everyone just hit a five iron through the saddle where the tee is now.

OTOH, I've played it a couple of times with the new 16th and I'm not a fan of the hole. It has hazards on both sides of the fairway... just too much of an ask for my taste.

The old 17th was the scene of one of my all-time favorite exchanges. Orville Moody was defending champ, and a insanely accurate driver, but when he walked to the tee in a practice round, he asked for an iron.

But some smartass said, "Trevino hit driver."

Moody gave the iron back to his caddy and took the driver.

He then piped it, right down the middle of that narrow fairway, turned to the crowd and said, "The only time I leave the fairway is to answer the phone."

Oh yeah, 21 years later, I was sitting on the hill beside the par three 17 fairway when Freddy Couples comes through, and what did I see but his first wife Deborah wearing a VERY short skirt, with a matching bikini top, covered by a lace jacket.

Just the thing for warm June day in Minnesota.

[Eric LeFante]

Great story Ken

[Dan Kelly]

I was there on the grounds of Hazeltine for all of the 1970 US Open, all of the 1991 US Open and all of the 2002 PGA. I played the original Hazeltine many times and have played the new Hazeltine several times. And this is my considered opinion:


The first Mrs. Couples (R.I.P.) needed more dramatic adjustments than the original Hazeltine.


I thought the original 17th (condemned by PJ Boatwright) was a wonderful hole, one of my favorite holes on the course (along with No. 10 and No. 6, this week playing as No. 15). No. 17 was an iron-and-pitch par-4 (344 or 345 yards, if memory serves, and it usually does when it comes to numbers!) on a course that otherwise demanded driver everywhere except No. 10 and No. 6. (Of course, a bold player COULD take driver on 6, 10 and 17 and get it within 40 or 50 yards of each green.)


Tony Jacklin hit the shot of the championship in 1970 on No. 17, in the third round. Having pulled his long-iron tee shot into the trees, he declined the smart pitchout to the fairway. Instead, he punched a low one under the branches, between the two fronting water hazards (a very narrow runway) and up onto the green. He made the birdie putt. I thought it was a travesty that they plowed that history under.


Yes, some of the original doglegs (including 1, 2, 9, 18, and 16, the dogleg par-3, which only needed the damn tree to be cut down) were very severe (and all right-to-left) and cried out for amendment. But I think Hazeltine overdid it when they made "corrections" -- turning 1, 9 and 18 into dead-straight long par-4 holes that are hard without being particularly interesting.


I like 16. I wish they'd have built the new 16 to replace the old 17 and made Hazeltine a par-73.


One man's opinion.


I really wish we'd had a normal dry late summer, early fall, so that Hazeltine could get firm and relatively fast. It plays better that way. But we have had a Monsoon Season here since the beginning of August. Nothing to be done about that!


Thankfully, no rain in the forecast.

[Eric LeFante]

Reed just made a big putt to win the match on the new 16th hole with thousands of people watching. Rickie and Phil win the hole to tie the match. New 17 is a much more dratmatic hole, as Fowler and Sullivan just proved, than the old 17th. Very cool. Great move by the PGA.

[Dan Kelly]

New 17 is a much more dratmatic hole, as Fowler and Sullivan just proved, than the old 17th. Very cool. Great move by the PGA.

Agree 100%


Hazeltine should leave the order this way forever. That 8th hole can be a little brute.

[Matthew Rose]

Rather than plowing under two holes, I wonder why they didn't just simply switch the nines.

[Jeff Shelman]

Rather than plowing under two holes, I wonder why they didn't just simply switch the nines.

Matthew,

The range is right next to the first tee. The 10th tee is on the opposite side of the clubhouse. It would be awkward at best.

In addition, there is much more room around No. 1 tee than No. 10 for grandstands, etc.

[Matthew Rose]

Sorry, I meant this current routing. I didn't realize that it switched halfway through.

[Rick Shefchik]

Rather than plowing under two holes, I wonder why they didn't just simply switch the nines.

The USGA forced Hazeltine to plow under the original 16th and 17th holes. Regardless of how well liked 17 was by some, it was hated by the people who mattered when it came to deciding whether Hazeltine would ever get another U.S. Open. Since hosting major championships is Hazeltine's basic mission statement, the club did what was necessary to lure the Open back to Minnesota.

[Matthew Rose]

My thought is would they have been as willing / adamant to do that if those holes had been #7 and #8.

[John_Conley]

Rick:

You and others do a great job of describing old/new 16/17.  I never saw the old version.  My dad always lamented the loss of 17, no matter how famed 16 has become.  (Bud Chapman painted this for the Western Golf Association to raise money for Evans Scholars.)

Hazeltine has been able to withstand two PGA Championships and the Ryder Cup quite nicely.  I wonder what is next.  When it was on the USGA list it held two US Opens (on entirely different layouts), a Womens Open, and a Senior Open.