Strictly 2-Ball Clubs

[Sean_A]

Is there such a thing as a recreational foursomes?
Ulrich

Absolutely.  What do you think Buda is?  Sure, the score is kept, but its mainly a social/recreational outing...its what Brits call a friendly.  I have played far more recreational 4somes than proper competitive 4somes.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Why would any club decide to be foursomes only? I don't think there are any although I stand to be corrected.

They wouldn't and there isn't.

But inevitably the thread has turned more to talk about foursomes than singles matches.

I was reiterating that singles matches are in my opinion both the most enjoyable and most social format of the game.

Ally

[Mark Pearce]

I was reiterating that singles matches are in my opinion both the most enjoyable and most social format of the game.

A statement with which I completely agree.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I play most of my golf with complete strangers, who happened to book themselves into the same tee time as I. With more than 1000 members and close to 10000 members from affiliated clubs this seems to be unavoidable.

Ulrich

[Mark Pearce]

I play most of my golf with complete strangers, who happened to book themselves into the same tee time as I. With more than 1000 members and close to 10000 members from affiliated clubs this seems to be unavoidable.

Ulrich

Isn't that a good thing?  One of the things I really like about two of the clubs I play at (Elie and Crail) is that most competitions are drawn, so that you don't get to choose who you play with but play with whoever you are drawn with.  That's a great way of getting to meet members that you might otherwise not meet.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, due to time constraints I rarely play in competitions, so I won't know about that. But for recreational play it is definitely interesting what kind of people you get to meet this way. But obviously that way there is no other form of play than everyone playing his/her own ball and deciding for themselves whether to keep score or even stick to the rules of golf.

Ulrich

[Mark Chaplin]

Two ball clubs are like public schools, a small but not insignificant market. Two ball clubs can play to their strengths and do well but mixing formats ends up with a fudge and you end up pleasing no one. At the end of the day as long as 2% of the market wants to play quickly on by and large classic old courses, then two ball clubs will continue to do well.

Of those clubs listed I don't know of any that are struggling.

[Jim Hoak]

4-ball play in the US is driven by our handicap system--post every score, infrequent tournaments for posting tournament rounds, etc.  I hear that a new world-wide handicap system is being developed, which (perhaps unfortunately) will be more like the US-model.

[Thomas Dai]

Amateur play in singles competitions in the UK is almost always in 3-balls..........singles competition play in 4's is not permitted. I guess at the few strict 2-ball clubs, singles competitions are played in 2's!


Interesting to note Richards comments about weekend 4-ball and society 3-ball play at Huntercombe.


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think all things considered there is probably NO strictly 2 ball clubs in GB anymore. In fairness most/all have moved over to be more welcoming and allow the way modern golfers tend to want to play which is 3 and 4 ball play at certain times or days which is often the only way it can be done if a golf club only has a single start point.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think all things considered there is probably NO strictly 2 ball clubs in GB anymore. In fairness most/all have moved over to be more welcoming and allow the way modern golfers tend to want to play which is 3 and 4 ball play at certain times or days which is often the only way it can be done if a golf club only has a single start point.

I think Royal Ashdown will allow occasional 3 ball play if a prior request is made to the secretary.

But I'm pretty sure Pulborough and Brancaster are strict about it. Can't talk for the others but I imagine Rye is also.

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian where is the link to two ball clubs being unwelcoming? I frequent some excellent Pall Mall clubs where a jacket and tie is required. Moving to a model where jeans and trainers were acceptable wouldn't make them any more friendly. The fact two ball clubs don't conform to your model doesn't make them less welcoming.

[Michael Whitaker]

Most two ball clubs allow fourballs at least one day of the week, do they not? If not, they are costing themselves quite a lot of potential visitor income.

Michael,


most of the clubs that have such rules do not need to place income ahead of tradition and the membership.

For example? Name a couple.

[Michael Whitaker]

My initial exposure to golf in the UK opened my eyes to how much the locals considered golf a "game" and didn't really worry so much about scores and such. This was very new to me, because until that time golf had always been about "what did you shoot." Yes, we played fourball matches and gambled in The States, but your individual score was the primary purpose for playing and it was important to keep score for handicap purposes.

After spending six to ten weeks per year in the UK for the past 14 years, and being a member at Deal for six or so of those, I am now all about golf as a game. While I want to play as well as possible every time I tee it up (and I'm disappointed if I don't), my individual score means little to me... it's all about the game.

If there is not a game involved, I don't want to play. Singular golf or golf where you are only focused on your individual score is, IMHO, "Golf Masturbation..." it can be fun, but it's not as good as the real thing! 😉

[Jon Wiggett]

Most two ball clubs allow fourballs at least one day of the week, do they not? If not, they are costing themselves quite a lot of potential visitor income.

Michael,


most of the clubs that have such rules do not need to place income ahead of tradition and the membership.

For example? Name a couple.

Mike,


I could turn your question around and ask if you can name one that is dependent on greenfee income to survive. I cannot think of one can you? So to answer your question any of the clubs with playing format requirenments such as Muirfield, Rye, RSG, etc.

[Thomas Dai]

I appreciate that some clubs have closed and that some/many are in trouble but there will be those private member clubs that even if their visitor income disappeared completely would still continue.


Facilities and conditioning may suffer, maybe at certain over-manicured clubs conditioning may suffer for the better (!) but the clubs would still go on functioning. The average age profile at most private UK clubs is pretty high and folk are living longer and longer so even if they have to pay more in subs to offset less visitor income coming into the club I suspect the majority would still go on paying their subs and playing just as regularly as they've always done.


Is Mr Bloggs (or Mrs B or Miss B for that matter) who's retired and is fit and healthy, and there are lots and lots of them, really going to give up playing golf a couple of times a week with their mates (or spouse/partner) and go shopping or to pottery or art or some other afternoon class at the local college on their own or with their Other Half instead?


Atb

[Michael Whitaker]

Most two ball clubs allow fourballs at least one day of the week, do they not? If not, they are costing themselves quite a lot of potential visitor income.

Michael,


most of the clubs that have such rules do not need to place income ahead of tradition and the membership.

For example? Name a couple.

Mike,


I could turn your question around and ask if you can name one that is dependent on greenfee income to survive. I cannot think of one can you? So to answer your question any of the clubs with playing format requirenments such as Muirfield, Rye, RSG, etc.

Jon,

You have bastardized my question. I asked what two ball clubs don't allow fourball play. You turned it into which clubs are dependent on visitor income. You broached the subject, so I'll ask again... which clubs that "do not need to put income ahead of of tradition and the membership" do not allow fourball play at least one day per week?

I'll help you out... Muirfield allows fourballs... RSG allows fourballs... Rye does not, so you are one for three.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

think you are being a bit pedantic as you know what I mean and that in general it is correct however to please you please take either Huntercombe or Royal Ashdown for the second and discard the third. Just out of interest have you managed to find many that are dependent on greenfee income? I seem to have missed your answer

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

FWIW Royal Ashdown accepts fourball play on Mondays. See http://www.royalashdown.co.uk/societies/rates/

[Sean_A]

This discussion has gone wonky.  What difference does it make if a predominately 2ball club allows a some slots for 4ball?  That doesn't in the least change what the members are trying to achieve in how they play the game or why people decide to become members.  We all know 2ball clubs serve a niche market and no matter how people feel about that concept I don't see these clubs disappearing soon. 


Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

FWIW Royal Ashdown accepts fourball play on Mondays. See http://www.royalashdown.co.uk/societies/rates/

Oops!   

[Adrian_Stiff]

This discussion has gone wonky.  What difference does it make if a predominately 2ball club allows a some slots for 4ball?  That doesn't in the least change what the members are trying to achieve in how they play the game or why people decide to become members.  We all know 2ball clubs serve a niche market and no matter how people feel about that concept I don't see these clubs disappearing soon. 


Ciao

I think they will disappear as strictly 2 ball clubs and update to modern thinking, which in fairness most have. The demand for 4 ball is far greater than any other format. It appears you can book a 4 ball at Ashdown Forest on other days as well. Having early mornings reserved for 2 balls makes perfect sense as does a 1st and 10th start to please all parties. Green fee income is massive at most top 100 clubs and much needed to keep the subscriptions cheaper.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian where is the link to two ball clubs being unwelcoming? I frequent some excellent Pall Mall clubs where a jacket and tie is required. Moving to a model where jeans and trainers were acceptable wouldn't make them any more friendly. The fact two ball clubs don't conform to your model doesn't make them less welcoming.

You pretty much answered your own question here. They may be welcoming to 2 ball golf but they do not welcome 4 ball golf.
BTW it is not my model. I am just going with the flow that the % of 2 ball golf has dwindled over the 40 years I have worked in the game. As for foursomes I think that the younger element will drive that away in time.
I don't like jeans and trainers, cargo shorts, earings or tattoos, by the same token I don't like snobotoriums where at certain times of the day lines are drawn that you can't stand there and you can't wear that and the archaic rules that allow Cutherbert Smythe to wear the same dirty jacket and stained tie he has had in his locker for 5 years and he is ok and dressed correctly whilst 'another' is removed because his armani sleeveless top does not feature within the club rules at 18.03.
Middle ground is what is needed and most clubs do operate that way and many former snobotoriums are now very welcoming.

[Sam Andrews]

Ah dear Cuthbert, that tie once saved him from a nasty encounter with a lecherous lady member...


In my experience, two ball golf remains very popular at my club, even among the younger element, not just because it is quick but it is hugely social. Once people play it, understand that it is a team game in which the word 'sorry' is banned, it becomes great fun and a rich source of banter over lunch.




 

Adrian where is the link to two ball clubs being unwelcoming? I frequent some excellent Pall Mall clubs where a jacket and tie is required. Moving to a model where jeans and trainers were acceptable wouldn't make them any more friendly. The fact two ball clubs don't conform to your model doesn't make them less welcoming.

You pretty much answered your own question here. They may be welcoming to 2 ball golf but they do not welcome 4 ball golf.
BTW it is not my model. I am just going with the flow that the % of 2 ball golf has dwindled over the 40 years I have worked in the game. As for foursomes I think that the younger element will drive that away in time.
I don't like jeans and trainers, cargo shorts, earings or tattoos, by the same token I don't like snobotoriums where at certain times of the day lines are drawn that you can't stand there and you can't wear that and the archaic rules that allow Cutherbert Smythe to wear the same dirty jacket and stained tie he has had in his locker for 5 years and he is ok and dressed correctly whilst 'another' is removed because his armani sleeveless top does not feature within the club rules at 18.03.
Middle ground is what is needed and most clubs do operate that way and many former snobotoriums are now very welcoming.

[Jon Wiggett]

FWIW Royal Ashdown accepts fourball play on Mondays. See http://www.royalashdown.co.uk/societies/rates/

Oops!   

So take the other one then.