[Stephen Pellegrino]

A thought crossed my mind this morning, and a quick search on the discussion boards didn't seem to reveal an answer. Are there any drivable par fours with a Biarritz green? For arguments sake, lets say par fours that are about 275-300 yards in length.

It seems to me that this type of green complex might lend itself to a short par four - calling for different tee shots and different approaches from different players based on different hole locations. Perhaps the size of the green complex would be smaller on a par four Biarritz than those typically found on their par three cousins, but mightn't this type of hole call for a wonderfully crippling number of options?

Understood in this question is that a par three Biarritz is a half par hole on the plus side (i.e. par 3.5). Would the longer par four Biarritz concept work as a half par on the minus side (i.e. par 3.5)? Might it be even more enjoyable?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I built one at Wilderness at Fortune Bay in MN.  I agree the concept makes a lot more sense as a short 4, than the traditional ultra long (for that era) par 3.  I would have liked to see how those played back then, but maybe it really was the same, hitting a driver to the green and watching it roll that last 25-30 yards.

[MCirba]

Bobby Weed built one on a reachable (with second shot) par five at Glen Mills GC in PA.   I believe it's the 15th if my failing memory serves.   The second shot is also quite a bit downhill so it's a fun shot to watch as far as the uncertain outcome.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I think there are a few mentioned here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50728.0/nowap.html

[Jason Thurman]

Yet another reason why the Biarritz template doesn't work for the modern game. If the joy is all in watching the ball disappear into the swale before reappearing again, then it just doesn't do much for the modern player who can stop an iron or hybrid within 10 feet from ~225 yards, but whose eyes aren't sharp enough to really follow the ball rolling from ~300 yards at the tail end of a drive.


Black Creek's 17th is a driver for almost anyone from the back tee, but you won't get to circle a 3 on the scorecard even though the hole can play 280 yards or so.


Of course, a handful of guys in a Saturday afternoon skins game at the 5th Major learned that the 15th at Dismal River Red has some Biarritzy qualities when one intrepid golfer's tee shot from 310 yards disappeared into the valley in front of the green before reappearing and rolling to 10 feet.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Yet another reason why the Biarritz template doesn't work for the modern game. If the joy is all in watching the ball disappear into the swale before reappearing again, then it just doesn't do much for the modern player who can stop an iron or hybrid within 10 feet from ~225 yards, but whose eyes aren't sharp enough to really follow the ball rolling from ~300 yards at the tail end of a drive.


Black Creek's 17th is a driver for almost anyone from the back tee, but you won't get to circle a 3 on the scorecard even though the hole can play 280 yards or so.


Of course, a handful of guys in a Saturday afternoon skins game at the 5th Major learned that the 15th at Dismal River Red has some Biarritzy qualities when one intrepid golfer's tee shot from 310 yards disappeared into the valley in front of the green before reappearing and rolling to 10 feet.

You just stepped all over your premise.

[Jason Thurman]

Do you have any idea how hard it is to be ecstatic while squinting?

[Nigel Islam]

Do you have any idea how hard it is to be ecstatic while squinting?

That sounds like an exact quote from George Costanza

[Nigel Islam]

Yet another reason why the Biarritz template doesn't work for the modern game. If the joy is all in watching the ball disappear into the swale before reappearing again, then it just doesn't do much for the modern player who can stop an iron or hybrid within 10 feet from ~225 yards, but whose eyes aren't sharp enough to really follow the ball rolling from ~300 yards at the tail end of a drive.


Black Creek's 17th is a driver for almost anyone from the back tee, but you won't get to circle a 3 on the scorecard even though the hole can play 280 yards or so.


Of course, a handful of guys in a Saturday afternoon skins game at the 5th Major learned that the 15th at Dismal River Red has some Biarritzy qualities when one intrepid golfer's tee shot from 310 yards disappeared into the valley in front of the green before reappearing and rolling to 10 feet.

Did the template work for the 1920s game? I love Biarritz holes, but I don't think they ever really worked as intended. It's just hard to hit a shot that straight online. They do look elegant though!

[Sean_A]

Right or wrong, I always thought the concept of the Biarritz green would work better on a short four where the straight on angle must be earned rather than gifted.


Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPelligrino,
 
You've framed this question within the context of the PGA Tour Golfer.
 
Think of how interesting a shortish par 4 Biarritz would play to most golfers if the green was angled such that there's a preferred DZ for the approach.

[John Kavanaugh]

SPelligrino,
 
You've framed this question within the context of the PGA Tour Golfer.
 
Think of how interesting a shortish par 4 Biarritz would play to most golfers if the green was angled such that there's a preferred DZ for the approach.

You just described the 16th at North Berwick.

[Stephen Pellegrino]

Patrick-
Interestingly, in my mind's eye I was imagining the hole as a slight dogleg. One where the green sits at a bit of an angle to the tee, but sits straight in relation to the approach. I don't know why I imagined it this way, except that off the tee the player would be tasked with matching a particular distance with a particular line if he hoped to approach the green straight on.

John-
Having played North Berwick's 16th a handful of times, I've always enjoyed the approach...but felt like it would have been even more fun with a half wedge (or chipped hybrid, putter, 8 iron, etc.) rather than the mid iron that I remember typically playing. Maybe I've just been unlucky and haven't played #16 when its been blowing downwind.

-Stephen

[John Kavanaugh]

The one time I played NB the 16th was double down wind from what must have been an up tee. I had 70 yds to the green, a shot only slightly less exciting than my subsequent chip.

[Stephen Pellegrino]

The one time I played NB the 16th was double down wind from what must have been an up tee. I had 70 yds to the green, a shot only slightly less exciting than my subsequent chip.

See, now that's it! That seems like a ton of fun. A 70 yard pitch, which might normally be automatic, made exciting because of all the options you had in choosing your next shot. And the next. And the next...

[John Kavanaugh]

A couple of yanks on the beard and an argument could be made that the 18th at TOC is a drivable Biarritz.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's hard to imagine that it was 70 years ago that average people enlisted and defended the freedoms we enjoy today. 15 years ago average first responders died trying and succeeding saving the lives of innocents in the twin towers. Today average ain't what it used to be. If you're an average golfer, husband, lover or friend. Let it go, hide amongst the shadows, but please, please don't believe what you see or tell anyone about what you think you saw.

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