The fine line on greens that feed balls into hazards.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I like the concept of a green feeding a marginal or poorly planned shot into an adjacent bunker, especially on mid to short holes/approaches.
 
I've even seen the concept in action on a relatively well played approach shot with a little too much backspin.
 
I've been the victim of this particular architect's ploy on numerous occasions, especially on # 6 at NGLA.
 
I've also noticed that more clubs seem to be expanding or recapturing their putting surfaces such that they extend the putting surface to the edge of a bordering bunker.
 
In many instances the newly found or expanded green subtlely feeds balls into the adjacent bunker.
 
As I stated, I like this feature.
 
But, when does the sloping and feeding nature of the green become excessive ?
 
When does the penalty for a marginal or poorly planned shot become excessive ?
 
I don't have a problem when the feed is reasonable and into a relatively flat bunker and the recovery from that bunker is to a green absent excessive slope or undulation.
 
But, when the feed is into a water hazard, as I believe it is on # 7 at the Snead course at the Greenbriar, that would seem excessive, especially when a significant portion of the green feeds balls into the adjacent water hazard.
 
Not long ago I played a course with a similar configuration.
Going right on the approach was....... death.
But, going left, while appearing to be benign, led to the front portion of the green which in turn fed the ball into an adjacent hazard, leaving one a difficult recovery to an undulating/sloped green.
 
At what point/degree does the feeding slope become too steep ?
 
What's the correlation between the feeding slope and the ability for that slope to hold reasonable hole locations ?
 
Also, consider the speed of the green on the feeding slope.
As the stimp increases, the feed becomes more pronounced and more likely.
 
So, where do you draw the line ?
 
And, let's assume that the approach is no more than 140 yards.
 
 

[Sean_A]

I don't mind slopes feeding to trouble.  What I mind is not having a big enough target to avoid the dangerous slopes.  Sure, kick me in the teeth a few times a round, but much more than that just seems overkill.


Ciao 

[Blake Conant]

Seminole uses this feature quite a bit and it's about as severe as you'd want to get, I'd think.  Any examples of something that works that's more severe than 2 at Seminole?


And most of the time, if a ball is being fed into a bunker/hazard, so is water.  The use of that feature in sandy soils should be used more, in my opinion.  Let bunkers act as catch basins, for balls and water.  In clay soils I think it's smart to avoid. 

[Rob Marshall]

Country Club of Rochester did a renovation 10 years ago or so. The 7th hole is a par 3 with the green moving from back right to front left. The left surround is tightly mowed grass that slopes down to a creek. In a practice round the greens were very fast and the pin was set on the slope and I was putting down towards the creek. I hit what I thought was a pretty good putt that slid just past the hole continued on and went in the creek. A friend passing by going to the 5th tee says "nice putt" and laughed. Later that night he told me he did the same thing when he got there.

Now if I hit a shot in that is flirting with that side of the green I don't mind the ball bouncing down to the creek but a putt, not so much......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Blake,
 
Yes, Seminole does have those greens that feed adjacent bunkers.
 
While Seminole's greens may be large, they play smaller because of that feature, but, those slopes, other than the false fronts are mostly subtle, not precipitous.
 
And, the putting surfaces tend to be large in nature so the golfer tends to see them from his approach shot.  I think the fact that there's ample room in the center of the green offsets the trouble at the perimeters.
 
Play to the center and you minimize the heartache.
 
The wind at Seminole can certainly exacerbate that feed.
# 10 green can be treacherous, especially with a north wind.
 
Good call on Seminole.

[Eric Hammerbacher]

I love this feature on a green, but I think moderation would be key...I would have a problem thinking about it on every short approach.   

Pine Ridge in Baltimore has 17 uninteresting, flat greens.  But there is one green, the 15th, that requires a short approach with the ball above your feet to a green with a central valley that feeds balls down into a bunker on the left.  There is a very small area on the right side in which you can land a ball and have it hold when the pin is in the middle.  When it's front or back you have more room for error, so I guess set-up dictates the severity of the penalty. 

It's a lovely little hole, and it's completely out of character with the rest of the greens, in a good way.

South Hills CC in Pittsburgh has some drainage channels on a few greens to funnel water away to low spots because of the dense clay soil, but they don't necessarily lead into hazards.  They will feed balls into some weird spots but keep the ball on the green.  It makes for some interesting putts.  The course doesn't drain well, and I'm not sure they are an original feature.  I wonder if any other courses around Pittsburgh have a drainage problem that dealt with it in this way?

[Nigel Islam]

This is actually a great topic. Too bad there have only been 5 replies thus far......This is one of the things we don't see enough of in the states. Certainly Australian course have these features. Here in the US, Milwaukee CC and Crystal Downs have feed in features. I tend to like this, but only with bunkers not water.

[Bill_McBride]

Country Club of Rochester did a renovation 10 years ago or so. The 7th hole is a par 3 with the green moving from back right to front left. The left surround is tightly mowed grass that slopes down to a creek. In a practice round the greens were very fast and the pin was set on the slope and I was putting down towards the creek. I hit what I thought was a pretty good putt that slid just past the hole continued on and went in the creek. A friend passing by going to the 5th tee says "nice putt" and laughed. Later that night he told me he did the same thing when he got there.

Now if I hit a shot in that is flirting with that side of the green I don't mind the ball bouncing down to the creek but a putt, not so much......

I remember Tiger Woods doing that on the 13th green at Augusta. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is actually a great topic. Too bad there have only been 5 replies thus far......
 
Agree, but, what does that tell you ?
 
 
 
This is one of the things we don't see enough of in the states. Certainly Australian course have these features. Here in the US, Milwaukee CC and Crystal Downs have feed in features. I tend to like this, but only with bunkers not water.

[Carl Rogers]

Last Wednesday, I experienced this at Mid Pines Hole 12.  A pretty good approach shot, with not quite enough carry and a bit of right to left, that after a few seconds drifted into the middle left green side bunker.  Hard hole for the short hitter.

[Andy Shulman]

This feature is present on many holes at Pat's own Mountain Ridge.  I think it makes a lot more sense than having long rough - which, admittedly, is its own penalty - between the green and any surrounding bunkers.  Otherwise, the ball ends up in the bunker only if it flies in.  As for the line between fair and not, the greens should have reasonable space to hold good shots struck by the average golfer.  Otherwise, the round goes from a good challenge to a chore...or worse.

[Eric LeFante]

The 12th green at Somerset Hills is a perfect example for this thread. It's 150 yards from the blues, 130 from the whites. Water is short, left, and long. There is a steep ramp on the right part of the green that will feed balls toward the middle of the green. It's nice to be able to play away from the water and use that ramp on the right, but if you are a little too far right, you will find a bunker and have a straight down hill shot with a poor chance of getting up and down.


The front part of the green is very narrow and if you mishit your tee shot and land it on the ramp on the front, the ball will feed into the water. If you hit your shot well and it lands pin high on the ramp, the ball will feed to the hole. I have not seen the hole location all the way up so you are not attempting to land the ball on the front part of the green.


It's frustrating to hit the green and end up in the water, but only poorly played shots will end up in the water.

[Ian Mackenzie]

This thread is a corollary to your other thread about two-tier greens.


It could be titled, "Hazards of the dance floor - How GCAs create greens to defend par."


- back shelves on greens
- false fronts
- greens that feed into "hazards" (bunkers, water, collection areas, etc.)
- greens that are sloped front to back
- sucker pin positions on greens


When is it too much? (or however you phrased your question.....)


Golf is not supposed to be fair, according to some world-class GCAs with whom I have spoken.
However, they insist, golf should be "fun".


Q: So, Pat, at what point does it become excessive?
A: When it ceases to be "fun".

[Adam Warren]

Why is Mucci a guest?