Carne Kilmore 9

[Ulrich Mayring]

Robin,

I'll grant you the 15th as being a great hole, but do you really think the 16th at Carne is a world-beater? It's a typical drop shot par 3 the likes of which have been seen before many times and IMHO it is too gimmicky for a links course.

Maybe it would be a par 5 too many, but replacement par 3s of quality are not hard to come by, the Kilmore has three

Ulrich

[Robin_Hiseman]

I enjoy 16 a great deal, as I believe do the great majority of others. It is the best par 3 on the Hackett, which does not have the best set of three's to be honest. The unnecessary blind tee shot on 2 is going to be fixed, 7 needs an entirely new alignment (it is an awful hole) and 14, albeit with a lovely tee location, is distinctly average. In that context, it would be nuts to mess with the most enjoyable short hole on the course. Standing on that high tee is one of the great locations in golf. Do you really want to abandon it?


Anyway, for the sport of it, let's assume your scheme gets the green light and 15 and 16 are combined. Where do we go for a replacement hole, ideally a par 3? Well, it has to be in the back nine of Hackett for starters and it has to be in combination with reducing one of the par 5's to a 4 to restore balance. What do you suggest?

[Ulrich Mayring]

Robin,

No. 2 struck me as a great par 3, actually because of the partial blindness. And 7 as well, surprised you think it is an awful hole. Just ask Lou, he hit the purest shot, came up one yard short and it rolled all the way down the hill, where all the hackers deposited their crummy shots - I love that hole because of that equalising quality! And 14 is one of my favorites on the entire course. So interesting how tastes can differ. Would like to hear more opinions about Hackett 16, but those standing on the tee with me weren't exactly jubilant.

The new par 3 could be played from roughly tee 17 Hackett in the direction of green 7 Kilmore. There is room, but I don't know the terrain, maybe it is too forbidding. In any event, from there the Hackett could finish with 8 Kilmore, 9 Kilmore. So there's your par restored.

Of course we'd need to do some work on the Kilmore then to connect it together and have it finish with Hackett 17, 18. But maybe the 17th could be shortened, once it's part of the Kilmore

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

For my money #16 is not a great hole and only #3 in line for quality at Carne.  Its ok for a drop shotter because of the wind, but the bunkering is a mess. 


Ciao 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Out of the four Hackett 3's, the only one I don't like is number 7.

I understand Sean's dislike of drop shot short holes but I think it's more to do with how ubiquitous they are rather than quality? I guess you could say they all have similar target golf playing qualities as well..... But the odd one is a thrill and so it is in particular with 16 at Carne..... The bunkering at Carne is not its strong point but those ones at 16 actually play their part very well, Sean.

Anyway, when it comes to par threes, the Kilmore wins hands down. But then I would say that.

Jon W - The composite routing improves the flow of the course by eradicating a couple of crossovers, climbs and walks. The one compromise (if people see it that way) is that 12 returns to the clubhouse rather than 9. I rather like the idea of a 12 and a 6 hole loop, especially because there's a separate 9 hole loop already sitting there as well.

[Garland Bayley]

I too like the partial blindness of #2. Fits very well with John Kirk's Universal Theory of Golf Enjoyment.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I too like the partial blindness of #2. Fits very well with John Kirk's Universal Theory of Golf Enjoyment.

Hi Garland,

Are you referring to the partial blindness on Kilmore 2 (which is natural and deliberate) or the partial blindness on Hackett 2 ( which is there because there wasn't enough cut taken when building).

On the latter, the idea is to take approximately an extra 4 feet out of the centre of that flat, central plateau, thus tying the eyeline with the green surface whilst allowing the dead ground behind to remain as is. Returning to that theme of deception.

Ally

[Garland Bayley]

Hackett 2

[Garland Bayley]

I picked up the "North &West Coast Links Golf Ireland" brochure at Rosapenna. It credits Hackett/Engh/McIntosh as architect. It makes me wonder what Engh is there.

[Thomas Dai]

How could/should the 7th on the Hackett be changed?


Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Have to disagree with you on Hackett 14, Robin, for me it's comfortably the best par 3 on that course and possibly on the property.

[Robin_Hiseman]

New green on the dune to the right of the green. It's lower, wider, more spacious and has scope for interesting green and surrounds contouring. Tee pushed over to the fence line. Would be a good par 3.

The 7th is the first hole that anybody sees on the drive in. It is not a good shop window for a great course.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Mark

Tee 14 is my favourite spot on the entire property, but I think the hole lets it down. Granted, it's a challenging little bugger, but the severely cambered green can be a bit of a joke when the wind gets up. I don't dislike it and its not a poor hole, but it's not a good one either. The hole does not have a good sense of scale (hard to explain in words...it's more of a feeling).  I always feel a bit let down by it and I've played it enough now to know this is a well informed reaction. All the Kilmore 3's are better holes...IMHO.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Garland,

The skeleton of the routing (as in the hole corridors) is basically an amalgamation of Engh / Mangan / McIntosh. What I did when I started in 2010 was look at the overall scheme and re-route some areas until we came up with the best option. But this was always with the mind that there would be no appetite to start from scratch. I think we have the best routing out there. Previous iterations were most definitely cart only.

Thomas,

In 2013, I issued a renovation report that suggested moving the green site of no.7 to the right. Luckily both Eamon and Eddie Hackett before he died had had the same idea. Much more interesting position and chance to build a good hole. Hopefully the club will back the idea at some point.

Ally

[Sean_A]

Have to disagree with you on Hackett 14, Robin, for me it's comfortably the best par 3 on that course and possibly on the property.

I too would choose 14 as the best par 3 on the Hacket course. 


Ally, the bunkers at 16 look terribly fake in contrast to the natural look of the setting.  I am also not convinced there should be a second bunker down the left. I spose pot like bunkers are nearly always going to be ugly when viewed from above.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for your H-7 thoughts Robin and Ally. I recall the spot you mention.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.2276203,-10.0299744,17z/data=!3m1!1e3 ought to give a close-up


Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thought I’d give a quick update on the Kilmore which is a little disappointing.


Since Eamon Mangan retired, there does not seem to be the knowledge nor funds to really get the Kilmore up to scratch from a maintenance standpoint. It was patched together in 2016 for BUDA and has since gone backwards, being closed for much of the time in 2017. Much of the design impact is a shadow of the intent.


That said, the No Laying Up lads were there with Tom Coyne a couple of weeks ago and they apparently saw through the presentation to what lay below. There’s a video in the works so I’m looking forward to seeing that.


I’m really keeping my fingers crossed that enough people will keep mentioning to the club what they have in the Kilmore. They certainly need reminding because until it is brought on, it will sit in a kind of limbo.

[Thomas Dai]

This is sad news. I think the Kilmore-9 is terrific. Such amazing dune-scape terrain, gorgeous views and wonderfully challenging golf too.
I did spot that the NLU crew had been there recently.
Hopefully the publicity generated by their apparent enthusiasm for the Kilmore-9 might, fingers crossed, breath held, spur some positiveness on the part of the club (social media can work in mysterious ways, on a worldwide basis too).
Maddening to think that a course with holes like these could be allowed to just sit in limbo.
Atb

2nd


5th


8th


9th

[Jay Mickle]

My recollection of my visit 5 years ago was a preference for the 2nd 9of the Hackett and the Kilgore nine. What a wonderful surprise the courses were.

[Niall C]

I said at the time, and possibly on this thread, that Ally's work at Carne was excellent given how difficult the land is. That kind of terrain doesn't or at least shouldn't produce really good golf (IMO of course) but somehow Alley managed it on that nine. As for Eddie Hackett's work, I don't mean to be disparaging but anything I've seen of his tends to be at best average which given some of the quality land he worked with is saying something.


Niall 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I said at the time, and possibly on this thread, that Ally's work at Carne was excellent given how difficult the land is. That kind of terrain doesn't or at least shouldn't produce really good golf (IMO of course) but somehow Alley managed it on that nine. As for Eddie Hackett's work, I don't mean to be disparaging but anything I've seen of his tends to be at best average which given some of the quality land he worked with is saying something.


Niall

Niall,


Thank you for those kind words.


And whilst I partially agree with you that a lot of huge dune terrain does not offer the best of ‘pure’ golf, what it should do - for anyone with a heartbeat - is provide more than a few heart thumping moments of excitement.


I genuinely believe there is no place that does this better than Carne. It’s all the more frustrating that we’re not seeing some of those Kilmore mowing lines widened as intended because the number one mantra when building the course was to squeeze as much playability in to it as possible. The drama was always going to take care of itself once we had the routing set.


Ally

[Ulrich Mayring]

There are rumours that the Kilmore 9 will, together with the Hacket Back 9, form the new championship course "Wild Atlantic Dunes". What of it?

Ulrich

[Dan_Callahan]

I was just there last week and played all 27 holes. I’ll post pics of the Kilmore 9 when I get a chance. But yes, I was told the second 9 of the Hacket course will join the Kilmore 9 to form Wild Atlantic Dunes.


Conditioning of Kilmore was rough but not awful. The fairway on the 6th was pretty torn up, but not in an area that was really in play.


It was noticeable how much longer the green to tee walks were on Kilmore compared to the Hacket courses.


I was not a big fan of the 5th. There just aren’t a ton of options on the hole. But the rest of the holes were fun as hell. All of Carne is fun. And at both Carne and Enniscrone, I feel like they got the width just right (as compared to Portsalon, which felt way too penal and bowling alley-ish to me).

[Dan_Callahan]

The par 5 1st hole



The cool par 3 2nd



Short par 4 3rd



The very short par 3 4th



View of the second shot on the winding par 5 5th



Short right of the green on the uphill par 4 6th



Believe it or not ... the view from the tee on the par 3 7th, which looks a lot more unforgiving than it plays.



The green on the par 4 8th, one of my favorite holes at Carne.



Looking back toward the tee on the par 4 9th.

[RJ_Daley]

Very compelling photos Dan.  They bring back great memories.