Carne Kilmore 9

[Ulrich Mayring]

Here are my observations, just off the top of my head, no deep analysis performed. It has a number of unforgettable holes, the most incredible terrain and some very creative design ideas - as well as a good amount of walking between holes. It doesn't flow quite as naturally as the Hackett course. Here's a quick run-down on the most remarkable aspects:

Hole 1: the approach to this par 5 is unique. The safe collection area short right, the ball-eating rough short left and this land bridge in between. I'm undecided, maybe put a huge bunker on the left side instead?

Hole 2: a great par 3 and the right pin is the devil. Is that a bunker short right (behind the dune) or a waste area?

Hole 3: Spectacular hole, never seen anything like that before. Actually very playable despite the blindness.

Hole 4: Is that the temporary par 3 that will be replaced by a par 4? There's an awkward cross-over to the next hole.

Hole 5: Again, never seen before. A snaking par 5 through what must be the highest dunes at Carne. Very long, very winding, very spectacular. However, too easy to lose your ball off the tee, there's no bail-out left, right or even long.

Hole 6: The best looking hole IMHO. We've seen short uphill par 4s before, but this one is a fresh take and also Bill came within inches of driving the green (on his second ball of course! ;-)

Hole 7: I love this long par 3, not only because of the spectacular setting and the fact that it plays a lot less penal than it looks. It played great on the day, because it was a club between driver and fairway wood for me, so I had a choice to go long or short. I went long and still didn't lose my ball - good!

Hole 8: Seems like an aerial approach is required on this par 4. Maybe we could lose the left bunker in front of the green or at least turn it into a small pot.

Hole 9: Great view over the course. I lost my tee shot left, which I think is avoidable.

So much for today, have to catch the ferry now

Ulrich

[Rich Goodale]

Excellent review, Ulrich,  IMO...


1.  lots of blindness and wild green site, but at 560 yds (metres?) if you can hit the ball 250 then 210 it is a decent lie for a ptich towards a birdie.
2.  back right pin is VERY difficult.  bailing out right gives you a fairly each chip and putt.  when the green settles down, maybe the slopes can be moderated
3.  a blind drive with a wild green at the end.  laying up off the tee is not a good idea as you really need to be as close a possible to deal with the green.
4.  lovely short hole which will be greatly missed if they dynamite it to improve the routing
5.  an absolute conundrum (double dogleg) from tee to green which needs some mowing from the containment gunge.  It is not at all obvious, but the best drive is right and then over the 100 foot dune their with a wing and a prayer to a wedge to he green.  Not reachable in 2 unless your name is Bubba.
6.  nice hole, not great because it is blind to a wild green, but fun.
7.  excellent long par 3 which requires a long club to hit the wild green.  And then the fun starts....
8.  best hole on all of the 27 at Carne.  drive has to be down the right to have any chance to seeing the green.  even if there, you need to negotiate a mid-long iron with bunkers right and left (left one is confusingly short) and a 30 foot depression to the right if you come off the ball.
9.  a VERY hard long 4, with all sorts of elevation changes and micro humps and hollows.  a 5 is a very good result for all but the great golfer.


Rich


PS--Ulrich--thanks for your thoughts , your company and our game.


r

[Robin_Hiseman]

I'm sure Ally shall pitch in in due course, but I don't believe there's any plans to drop the 4th hole.

The Kilmore is still a work in progress and will be improved by some strategic widening of the playing areas, especially on the 1st hole, where the visible left side of the second landing area is flanked by some especially vicious rough. There is loads of room to the right, but you cannot see it and would have to be a regular to know it. That doesn't help the visitor in the slightest. Ally's red flags denoting the desired fairway cut line are still there, quite far out in the rough. They've been there 18 months! Ally and I disagree on the marram fronting the green. I think it should be semi rough. Ally doesn't. It looks great and defines the target beautifully, but is too penal for a shot falling just a yard or two short, when the mishit approach gets away with a decent lie in the semi at the bottom of the slope.

5 is a very exciting hole and like others, I think the short cut over the gunch needs more fair ground on the far side of the hill and a trim on the facing side. I got away with one, but there is just too much uncertainty as to whether your ball is alive or dead.

I love the Kilmore and hope it shall receive the maintenance to bring it up to the quality of the Hackett. Only then shall we be able to assess it fairly.

[Niall C]

I really enjoyed Carne but for my money the terrain is too extreme to make really good golf. That said, Ally had a damn good go at it with his nine holes which I thought were easily the best of the three nines in terms of design. The par 5 with its "Alps" in the middle of the fairway will probably get the most plaudits over time but I agree with Rich that the 8th is the best of the bunch with the long par 3 not far behind. As Ulrich says of the par 3, it's a lot less penal than it looks but playing safe by going up the right will usually leave a difficult job to get down in two.

Robin - agreed, I go for semi rough ahead of the wild look, particularly as (first timers) don't know what's between them and the green.

Niall

[Ulrich Mayring]

I don't think ponds belong on a links course and the area short left of the first green plays like a pond. Only you don't get to drop there. This rough really needs to go or be replaced by a waste area like the one short right of the second hole. It shouldn't be an easy shot from there, but to lose your ball only yards away from the green is a pond.

On the fifth we had four drives in our group and three were lost. None of us had hit a provisional, because none of us thought we could lose our ball there (two slightly left, one long off the ladies tee). That we found the fourth (Chris Hansom's) was only due to some spotters on a dune playing an adjacent hole, who had seen the impact. It's certainly not what you want in a best ball match that three players are out of the hole and watch whether the fourth can bunt his ball to the green so that he may claim the hole

Ulrich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Interesting to see some of the comments / queries. Let me try and answer some.

Regards the band of rough short left of the first green, I have indeed debated this with Robin on more than one occasion and I am pretty adamant in my stance. First of all, it should be noted that I hate big areas of semi-rough on links courses. It looks far too parkland. The 17th on Hackett gets away with it because the fall-off is hidden from the approach. But the 1st on the Kilmore is right in your face. It would completely ruin the aesthetic to remove that rough. The green would sit like an elevated pod and all sense of balance and uniqueness would be removed from the hole. So I want it to remain. But make no mistake, I don't want people to lose balls in it. So it needs topped, trampled and thinned out which will come with maintenance and footfall. It just needs to remain with some longer grasses so it isn't an open area of dark green semi. Ulrich, I'm afraid a bunker wouldn't work there. Not only would it be the largest in Ireland but the slope is far too steep and scratching an open blow out from that hill would mean there would be no green site pretty quickly through sand blow and wind erosion.

A bigger immediate area to fix with the first is the one Robin states about widening the fairway to the left over the mound where the 2nd shot finishes (despite that fairway being 70 yards wide already). The eyeline takes you left so this is important. It has been marked for a long time, as has widening the fairway to the right on the tee shot.

Rich, that 2nd hole back plateau is very small ( though certainly hittable). Despite us taking a good amount of fill in to that green site, those levels are very close to what was there before. We had to tie from high back to low front using the natural dune shoulder. Big slopes on that green but a very playable hole. Sees quite a lot of birdies with all pin positions. And I don't see an issue with having a few small areas that even good players don't expect to hit.

Which is actually more evident on the short 4th where we put in a sucker front left pin that no one should go for, even though it only plays 124 yards. There is no intent to get rid of that 4th by the way. More of that in minute. But both it and the 7th I think have fulfilled what we were trying to do. The 4th was supposed to be an easy looking hole that played hard and the 7th was supposed to be a hard looking hole that played easier.

Ulrich on the 5th - Surprised you lost so many balls left. It's quite wide there but from the white tees it does pinch at driving distance so is sometimes a 3 wood. I agree with Robin that we need more space mown on the back of the Alps hill for the 2nd shot. And the front of the hill topped down.

Generally speaking we have some widening out to do in a few areas but all should note that a new links needs footfall to start thinning out primary rough. That'll come with time and Carne has always had a 19th century approach to development and is all the better for it.

Which comes to the routing. We had to fit 9 extra holes in to a 280 acre site that already held 18 and where half of the land is unusable because of its severity. And I am absolutely sure that the best solution was arrived at. I believe it does actually flow very well in an anti-clockwise fashion with most tee sites relatively close to previous greens. There are a few climbs but no more than the Hackett back nine. The problem area is the 4th hole which is the connector between one side of the property and the other.

So I had proposed what is known as the Composite routing which eradicates that slightly awkward crossover. I was hoping we could play it but unfortunately that was not to be. But just for your info it goes as follows:

H-10
H-11
H-12
H-13
H-14
H-15
H-16
K-5
K-6

K-7
K-8
K-9
K-1
K-2
K-3
K-4
H-17
H-18

Means you walk from Hackett 16 green to Kilmore 5th tee right beside it. And also that you walk from Kilmore 4th green to Hackett 17th tee right beside it.

Anyway, hope that answers some queries. Hopefully will see some of you back there in the future when the course has come on a little from where it is now.

Thanks,
Ally

[Adam Lawrence]

Interesting to see some of the comments / queries. Let me try and answer some.

Ulrich on the 5th - Surprised you lost so many balls left. It's quite wide there but from the white tees it does pinch at driving distance so is sometimes a 3 wood. I agree with Robin that we need more space mown on the back of the Alps hill for the 2nd shot. And the front of the hill topped down.

You were talking about that when I was there on opening day three years ago. Get 'er done!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Interesting to see some of the comments / queries. Let me try and answer some.

Ulrich on the 5th - Surprised you lost so many balls left. It's quite wide there but from the white tees it does pinch at driving distance so is sometimes a 3 wood. I agree with Robin that we need more space mown on the back of the Alps hill for the 2nd shot. And the front of the hill topped down.

You were talking about that when I was there on opening day three years ago. Get 'er done!

Things can move a little slow there at the moment I'm afraid, Adam. Especially since the course just opened again after 8 months closed.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ally,

on such a long hole as the 5th I wouldn't want to make people hit 3 wood off the tee. And it's not a problem with the white tee only. Barbara hit a straight drive off the ladies tee into that rough. I wouldn't want to take driver out of a lady's hands on a long par 5 - I don't know how many ladies even carry a 3 wood.

About the area short left of the 1st green, if your main concern are the looks and you don't like the look of semi-rough, then mow it down to fairway height. You can keep the semi-rough at the bottom or mow that down as well and put some "Rye eyebrows" at the edge of the green to prevent putting up. That should make the shot plenty hard.

Your idea of having the Marram "thinned out and trampled down" does not sound like a solution to the looks problem. Whether you cut it or trample it down, the look will be gone. Thinning it out might work, but would that not be maintenance hell on a slope?

If you are absolutely and positively adamant about the look, then keep the Marram as it is, but play the area as GUR. Yeah, that sounds silly, but if you want playable in unplayable stuff...

cheers,

Ulrich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Ulrich,

That bank on the front of one is far too steep for a fairway mower I'm afraid. I'm pretty comfortable with the medium term plan for the slope. I'd prefer to try the thinning out method before we jump straight to the semi-rough.

With the 5th it's just not my choice, such are the structural challenges of huge dunes. Generally speaking people are fine with driver there as it plays in to the prevailing wind. And there is still a 30 yard wide gap to play to even after the fairway narrows.

The Kilmore nine really is the quintessential course that you learn more each time. There's a lot of deception in there, some natural and some designed.

Ally

[Thomas Dai]

While at Carne I managed to play the Kilmore-9 three times in a combination of bright sunshine, drizzle, heavy rain, thunder/lightening and very strong wind. It's pretty wonderful IMO, a real rural, rustic, unpolished gem.

Nine terrific and memorable holes, epic ones many, routed through and over some very severe terrain in a very minimalist manner. And severe terrain can't be easy from a maintenance perspective especially in a remote area where money isn't easy to acquire, even more-so given the poor weather conditions apparently experienced over the last few months.

However, with some greater local desire and support for Ally's ideas, a bit more money/maintenance staff, some more attention to detail/conditioning, some revised mowing lines and a bit of helpful weather the gem that is currently the unpolished Kilmore-9 ought to shine out..............and shine out big time. It's currently to me a course that is comparable to a large diamond that's just been dug out of the ground but not yet been sent away to be finally cut and polished.

And if routed the way Ally indicates above in combination with the second half of the original Hackett course then many of the long walks from the greens to the next tees will evaporate.

I very much look forward to returning.

Atb

PS - here's a GCA thread from a while back detailing some of the Kilmore-9's history - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43267.0.html

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ally,

before we started playing you mentioned something about a new fairway being constructed, but not in play yet, to make a par 3 into a par 4 or something to that tune? Can you describe those plans again?

Kind regards,

Ulrich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

before we started playing you mentioned something about a new fairway being constructed, but not in play yet, to make a par 3 into a par 4 or something to that tune? Can you describe those plans again?

Kind regards,

Ulrich

I see now what you were referring to, Ulrich.

What happened was that the 4th hole on the Kilmore (par 3 that connects two sides of the property) used the old 12th tees from the Hackett course.

So the 12th hole was re-routed and is still a work in progress. The tees have been placed in to natural ridges, the fairway has been moved to the right and the dogleg softened. At the same time the green was redone. Once finished, the first half of the old 12th fairway will be grown in leaving a proper separation between K4 and H12.

The final piece of this jigsaw is the hope that the club can procure the small 500m2 wedge of land at the corner that will make the crossover flow naturally and stop the confusion of two holes converging from the same access path.

Ally

[Michael Whitaker]

Are putting some sheep on Carne a possibility? They would definitely help with the rough and provide a uniqueness that would attract visitors.

[Garland Bayley]

If balls are going to stay on hillsides on the fifth, sheep or no sheep, mowing or no mowing, the higher handicapper will find it to difficult. I was able to defeat or tie Bill Thomas on par fives at Enniscrone by hitting driver followed by as many seven irons as necessary to get home. I wasn't able to finish five on Kilmore by even going down to nine iron.
I wish I didn't suck at golf as much as I do at times, but that's just the way it is.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Are putting some sheep on Carne a possibility? They would definitely help with the rough and provide a uniqueness that would attract visitors.

Mike,

Sheep work in certain places. They work in the  machair landscape of Mulranny.

I'm sure they would leave the big dunes of Carne looking ok as well although you'd be eradicating all the marram grasses that add a great deal to the site.

But you are changing a lot with sheep. You are putting fences around the greens for one and you are accepting a different kind of maintenance meld.

If we're absolutely honest about it, a course being maintained by sheep means the perception of quality that course holds in the public eye is a good few levels lower. It's only a small percentage of GCA nuts that can see past that perception.

I'd be more inclined to put a few goats out there ala Lahinch. But they'd be very fat goats very quickly.

Garland - 5 at Kilmore is a quirky one alright. In a ideal world, the safe route would be a little wider. But the valley is so steep sided that it is impossible to change that. The  best option is to mow out the direct route a little more. Then it is only a mishit or badly thought out second shot that will leave you stymied by the central dune.

It can be played for certain. Remember most of you guys only had one crack at it.

Ally

[Niall C]

I had two cracks at the 5th and still didn't finish it. Mind you, second time around I was so determined to have a crack at going over the top that I attempted the shot even though the lie wasn't good enough. My fault. On another day and with my sensible head on I'd have finished it OK I'm sure (well, nearly sure).

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

I played K-5 three times, twice successfully, making easy bogies, and once finishing without a ball (when the club slipped in my hand in the rain, well that's my story!). Each time I attempted to play the hole in the conventional manner, ie along the length of the snake like canyon. Being far from the longest hitter I mentally consider the hole as a par-6, indeed my first play on the Fri was in a four-club wind against so the hole really did play as a par-6 for me.


I did think about playing the shorter route over the slight saddle in the right hand dune ridge but didn't think I could carry my second shot sufficiently far to be able to carry both the dune saddle plus importantly the heavy gunch that was on the far-side.


However, if the slope on the tee side of the dune ridge saddle were wider and comprised fairway length grass plus the landing area on the far-side of the dune was sufficiently wide and cut to fairway grass height then this is the route I believe I would usually plan to take to play the hole.


I believe two routes is how Ally always envisaged K-5 to play but as we now know general maintenance limitations (money/manpower) at Carne have restricted a great deal of the mowing lines that Ally would prefer to see in place on the Kilmore.


Indeed I would suggest that if the Kilmore received the same kind of maintenance effort and practices as the Hackett-18 with some additionally opened up mowing lines etc it would be quite sensational, an easy contender for the best sequence of nine links holes in GB&I.


The suggestion made above of using goats in places on the rugged Kilmore terrain has appeal. They seem happy to eat just about anything and their surefootedness and climbing/descending ability is well known. Tether them on long chain lines to concentrate their chewing efforts and importantly move the chain points very regularly. An experiment I would suggest that is probably worth trying, not just at Carne either, and if successful continuing.


Atb

[Ulrich Mayring]

I agree that the Kilmore has the bones to be one of the best 9 hole links golf sequences, but only if the routing issues are resolved. It has to be a course you would want to go round and round again.

At Ballybunion they put a spotter on top of the Klondyke dune and thus it doesn't matter that this hole crosses with the 18th. At Enniscrone 13th they have some kind of red/green light sensor where I have really no idea how it does it, but it seems to know when the green is empty. I understand that at Carne the budget is tighter and what we have is the most we could get out of the available money. I am just mentioning these examples to demonstrate out-of-the-box thinking. Maybe the right way to cross from one part of the property to the other is by hitting a shot!

Ulrich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Ulrich,

I'm not really sure what you mean by routing issues. Are you referring to crossing in front of the Hackett 17th tee to get from 4 green to 5 tees?

If so, that is why the composite course has been floated. But note that is only an 80 yard walk. It's more a signage problem rather than anything else. Most of the green to tee walks on Kilmore are actually relatively short. That was the main objective with what became the final routing. 3 green to 4 tee is the longest at about 150 yards. 8 green to 9 tee is about 120 yards and made all the tougher because of a big walk up hill. Most of the rest are very short.

There is no way of "playing" an option that reduces those walks. We're in the midst of 100 foot dunes.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ally,

yes, you mentioned the neuralgic points. Three of those walks in nine holes is a relevant number in the context of "one of the best 9 hole stretches in GB&I". In that context (which is what I was responding to) it needs to be close to zero.

Obviously, if there is no way to get to zero, then that is what it is. The Kilmore then won't aspire to the highest accolades, but it can still be very good golf. In many ways it is comparable to the Cashen Course, which has equally spectacular holes and the same type of walks. Although none crossing in front of a tee. Especially not a tee of another course, where the players are completely ignorant of my group and I of them.

For my taste that is too dangerous. You can get hit by a golf ball anywhere on the course, but rarely have to fear for your life. Standing in front of a tee box and getting hit by a drive from short distance is about the only way you can get killed with a golf ball. A signal system like at the 13th at Enniscrone would be a good solution.

Ulrich

[Ally Mcintosh]

I don't see that walk in front of the 17th tees as such as problem as you, Ulrich. After all, both sets of golfers are fully visible to the others and it's well signposted.... Must have been you had your head down in that storm....


Anyway, just to give you an idea of the Composite (or Kilmore) 18 sequencing I suggested, I post the two options for the club below. The first is as we are now with the original Hackett 18. The second is if they ever decide to play the odd competition on the Hackett back 9 / Kilmore 9.


Hackett 18:





Kilmore 18:

[Ulrich Mayring]

Hi Ally,

the Composite routing looks cool. It gives me all kinds of ideas, but they'd all mean changes to the Hackett course, which the club might not look favorably on. However, combining Hackett 15 & 16 into a longer hole could be spectacular and you're not losing an all-world par 3, but you still can use that sunken green site. And this would allow to build an additional hole to mitigate the crossing problem.

As to that crossing problem, it might not be one for the members, but certainly for me. I often see groups of golfers on the course and ignore them, because I expect them to play another hole. I do have a sense of the group in front of me, because I don't want to hit into them. The group on the 17th tee is, however, a totally foreign group to me and I did see those guys, but had no idea that they are going to hit into my direction or even that I was crossing their fairway. As I said, for members familiar with the situation it might be ok. However, I would probably have built a path that goes around the back of the 17th tee, even if that meant a longer walk. But perhaps not so much, if you start right of green Kilmore 4.

Ulrich

[Robin_Hiseman]

Combining 15 and 16 of Hackett is one of the crazier things I've ever heard. Thankfully, it'll never happen, as they are two of Carne's most endearing holes and there is no way a replacement par 3 of comparable quality can be found.


Neither does the back nine need four par 5's!

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,


is there a reason as to why all the 9's do not return to the clubhouse all the time?


Jon