[Patrick_Mucci]

appreciate the architect's design creativity and challenge moreso ?
 
Having recently played some courses where distance measuring devices were prohibited, I found the architect's visual signal, intended for my eye, more deceptive, which in turn created doubt in club selection and uncertainty in my play.
 
I appreciated the architect's work all the more.
 
How he crafted "cape" like holes where you weren't sure how much to bite off.
 
How he fronted greens with bunkers that blocked the land between the bunker and the green.
 
How the scale of the bunkers and greens, large and small, served to deceive me.
 
Forgetting about the argument for "speed" would golf be better without distance measuring devices ?

[Stephen Northrup]

It would depend on whether you're suggesting the elimination of all "distance-measuring devices" such as marked sprinkler heads, poles or trees at 150 yards out, yardage books, etc.


Golfers have been measuring distances low-tech style for decades -- GPS and lasers just save us from marching off distances from sprinkler heads, etc.


I certainly don't miss hunting for marked sprinkler heads.


In some respects, knowing distances to pins or bunkers could even enhance one's appreciation for the choices that the architect presents, e.g., is that pin located in a position where the architect intended for the golfer to consider the relative risk versus reward of going for it?


If every course offered pin sheets with the day's hole locations, I'd be happy to leave GPS/laser at home. At those courses that don't offer them, familiarity with the course is a major advantage in a match -- an advantage that GPS/laser can reduce.


In short, I've never found using distance-measuring devices to reduce my appreciation for the architect's work. Your mileage may vary -- ha ha.

[Tim Gallant]

Pat,


I think I have appreciated the architect's design creativity and challenge more when there are no yardages. Having played the game for nearly 20 years now, I am usually good at gauging distances within 15 yards+/- even before I look at the sprinkler heads (I don't have a laser or GPS device), but always confirm yardages at the sprinkler heads if available.


However, when yardages are unavailable, it is more challenging to judge distances in instances that you have pointed out - specifically par 3s where bunkers block the low land between the bunkers and fronts of the greens. A prime example of this is the par 3 16th at Gullane #1. With lasers / yardages available, you understand that the green is set back a bit from those front bunkers, which peer at you so menacingly. However, without these advantages, players would likely be tempted into taking too much club to avoid the bunkers, which would leave them with a devilish downhill putt.


At Luffness and Elie, where there are no yardages, I feel that players may be lured into making poor decisions based on optical illusions, which are partially eliminated by devices.


All that being said, I don't want to sound as if I am completely against yardages. As Steve rightly pointed out, it can be a big benefit for those playing a course for the first time, and I imagine speed up play slightly. Only trying to answer your question with my opinion

[Matt MacIver]

I'm against them* - I think they take away a fun part of the game, the judgment aspect - a learned skill like hitting it straight and the mental game. But at my level the precise yardage doesn't matter but it sure does to the pros. However they have caddie to march it off and pull clubs for them. 


* I have one and am sadly addicted to it. My father gave it to me for Christmas and now it's a crutch...if you can't beat 'em...

[Steve Lang]

   for golf yes, for tournament golf, no.

[Rob Marshall]

Pat, I think something was lost in the game when we didn't have to pace off yardages or try to guestimate the yardage when you had blown your drive into another fairway. However from a pace of play stand point it has helped the game.

I played in a tournament at the Country Club of Rochester a few years ago and they didn't allow them. I thought I would be lost without it but it really was not big deal.

Side question for you or perhaps a another topic for another day. When you stand on the tee of a course you have never played before what is your thought process?

[Jim Franklin]

I agree with your premise that some of the architect's deception is taken away by the use of measuring devices, but I like the fact that I know the exact yardages when using one. Not all courses provide yardage guides and we are in a new millennium so why adapt the newest technology?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps I am missing something here, but should a golfer wish to experience a round without any yardage measurement of any sort, what is stopping them?


Play a round with and without it, Pat, then please report back on your findings.


Back in the late 90's at the Valley Club, there were no yardages to speak of on the course.
There were, however, known yardages from ceratin trees and some were marked on the card.


Where this is most apparent, to me, is when there is an "infinity green". With a radar gun, I find my yardgae, pick a club and proceed.
Without such certainty, my mind is a bit grayer and questions the distance and that can yield a shot executed with less conviction.

[Michael Graham]

Surely this is how the golf course was designed to be viewed. I hope architects take the view through a rangefinder into account when designing a course. 

[JESII]

appreciate the architect's design creativity and challenge moreso ?
 

Pat,


Yes, uncertainty about the distance is always a difficult mental obstacle to overcome. The architect can use this to their advantage. The problem is that the rules never did limit access to that information.


For a player that plays a course once, or small handful of times, all of the things you mention would influence play. Not so much for those that play the course frequently. People tend to know what they can carry and how it will react on the ground. They know the best way to get the ball around certain hazards and to use the features on the ground to their advantage (and which ones need to be avoided.


The condition that can highlight the architects work the most is firm ground. Anything and everything that can be done to increase the number of firm days is the best investment golf can make. Knowing the exact yardage to a certain flag is merely a guidepost when the ground is firm and interesting.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Even with accurate yardages we would still hit the same number of poor shots??

[David Davis]

Pat,


Welcome back! Glad to read you are doing well and out enjoying the important things in life.


I'd agree on your premise but as people are mentioning various points I will select two that I find relevant.


1. I feel like personally I go in and out of this phase of feeling like I need to know the distances. I use to need to have stepped them out exactly just to have a number in my head, even though 5 out of 10 times I could hit the number on the spot. I really think this simply has to do with feeling awkward standing above the ball. At least if I knew the exact distance I didn't have something else to doubt. I've never owned a range finder of any kind, though I was given a Garmin GPS watch which I liked for a few rounds until I started to forget to charge it, then I became a little irritated that I was relying on it and decided to leave it at home.


When I'm playing a fair bit I find that I get much better at eyeballing things probably because I'm striking the ball well so have less doubt in my own game.


2. To me it seems far more important to have the exact distance on a parkland course as opposed to a links course. I find that I rely on the standard driving range swing on a parkland course while what I'm use to are links courses and rarely do I imagine the shots in a similar way to parkland. As a result of the wind and elements I'm perfectly fine have a rough estimate of the distance. Though not totally following your premise, a comparison would be a parkland course in the US for example with front-middle-back distance on all the sprinkler heads. In Europe it's quite common to run into courses that only have a 150 meter marker, or maybe a 150 meter marker and a 100 meter marker. So you just look where you are in relation to that and say about a 5 iron, as opposed to saying about 170 meters.

[Bill_McBride]

appreciate the architect's design creativity and challenge moreso ?
 
Having recently played some courses where distance measuring devices were prohibited, I found the architect's visual signal, intended for my eye, more deceptive, which in turn created doubt in club selection and uncertainty in my play.
 
I appreciated the architect's work all the more.
 
How he crafted "cape" like holes where you weren't sure how much to bite off.
 
How he fronted greens with bunkers that blocked the land between the bunker and the green.
 
How the scale of the bunkers and greens, large and small, served to deceive me.
 
Forgetting about the argument for "speed" would golf be better without distance measuring devices ?

You didn't talk to your caddy?

[Mark Smolens]

Does the elimination of distance measuring devices include cutting off one's feet and legs so that they cannot be used to measure distances?

For me, knowing how far it is to carry a portion of a hazard does not reduce my appreciation of the work of the architect.

[Bill_McBride]

Probably the aspect of GCA most damaged by rangefinders is the architect's use of terrain or bunker lips, etc, to disguise distances.  Lasers that pinpoint distance make those neat design elements almost irrelevant, which is sad.

[William_G]

knowing the yardage or meterage does not negatively impact one's appreciation of architecture

your visual impression does not change after looking at your yardage book, yet if it affords you the ability to play a course, you haven't seen before, with some confidence, but not a lack of appreciation...but that may just be me, of course, as I always push the envelope a bit on first plays eg. Cape Hole, to see where/how I can best score

secondly, while playing, if you don't know how far things are, don't pay attention or know how far you hit it, you cease to learn regardless of the brilliance of the architecture

it's all good as long as the devices are silenced 

[Patrick_Mucci]

You didn't talk to your caddy?
 
Bill,
 
One of the things I enjoy when I have a caddy armed with a laser/range finder, is guessing the distance prior to getting the read out.
 
I suspect that it's a lost art.
 
I recently had a terrific caddy at SFGC who, with only his eye, eyed every distance with a high degree of accuracy.
 
We had fun determining the yardage as I would determine my estimate and he would then provide his.
While he was more accurate than me, we were fairly close in our reads.
 
In terms of "knowing" the distance, how many of us can hit to a designated distance ?
 
In the "old days" I was fairly accurate with my irons.
Today, hitting the green is my priority.

[William_G]

Pat,

One of the things I enjoy when I have a caddy armed with a laser/range finder, is guessing the distance prior to getting the read out.
 
I suspect that it's a lost art.

I do that every time I have a caddy, it's fun...just did that at Kiawah for 3 days with a great caddy who's been there forever 

the other thing about knowing the distance, is that if you pay attention to your shots, you can learn how far you hit it under the conditions you are playing, that's a great thing 

[Patrick_Mucci]

William G,
 
That's a good point.
 
I couldn't believe how long SFGC played at 6,400 yards at 7:30am.
 
I had to discard my "typical" club selections and go one or two clubs longer.

[William_G]

exactly

[Stephen Northrup]

Pat, I'd wager your eyeballing caddy at SFGC has looped hundreds of rounds there. If so, it's no wonder he can eyeball with relative precision.


If the point you're making is that something is lost if one uses more information that what's provided solely by using one's senses, then one should also eschew using a caddy to measure or estimate distances.


If the issue is that something is lost through the use of laser and/or GPS technology to measure or estimate distances, then you're asking a different question altogether.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,
 
What was interesting was that the caddy was also caddying for another golfer and could call out the distances from my ball to the hole from 50 to 100 yards removed.
 
And, he was very accurate.
 
That's a unique talent.

[Michael Moore]

Having recently played some courses where distance measuring devices were prohibited

There is no such thing as a club that prohibits measuring devices. They are prohibited by the rules of golf.


P.S. - Rangefinders enhance the architecture. As Marshall McLuhan opined, "Persons grouped around a fire or candle for warmth or light are less able to pursue independent thoughts, or even tasks, than people supplied with electric light." My friends who played Winged Foot in the U.S. Amateur Four Ball this year were delighted with the task of hitting to exact spots and slopes on the green using a rangefinder and yardage book in combination.

[Stephen Northrup]

Pat, that is indeed a unique talent. With the ability to triangulate like that, he should run for public office.

[Sean_A]

I don't think there is any question that the new hand-held distant measurers have dumbed down the experience of architetcure.  What has more or less happened is the reduction of experience and one's ability to read the landscape as advantages.  My fear is that archies won't bother with visual mixed clues/deception if they know their work can easily be overcome with a machine. 


Whether or not one's appreciation for the architecture is diminished by these contraptions...it depends on the person.  Though I suspect at some base level if its only numbers a guys is looking for than there must be a diminished appreciation.  I was just in the US and I can say having accurate yardages is far more important when courses aren't keen.  It really is all about the carry...especially on hilly courses. 


Ciao 

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