Rank William Flynn's Philly area courses....

[Jimmy Muratt]

Among William Flynn's fine group of Philadelphia area golf courses.... how would you rank them?  What are the features of your top pick that separate it from the others?

The choices are:
Huntingdon Valley
Rolling Green
Manufacturers
Philadelphia CC
Lehigh
Lancaster

Is there another architect that is as often overlooked and underrated as William Flynn?  Adding Shinnecock Hills to this list makes for a very impressive resume.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jimmy,

Don't forget Woodcrest in Cherry Hills, NJ, which is a lot closer to Philly than Lancaster and Lehigh.  Atlantic City CC, recently redone (significantly) by Tom Doak, is also as close as Lancaster is to Philly.

[Mike_Cirba]

Also don't forget Philmont (South), who's mid-stretches of holes on each nine are some of Flynn's very best.  

[Fred_Ruttenberg]

Mike: it is Philmont North that is the Flynn course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Fred;

Thanks for the correction.  Sometimes my fingers and mind don't correlate!  

[Tom_Doak]

Jimmy,

It's been ten years since I played most of those courses, while we were building the first 18 at Stonewall.  In that time many of them have done a bit of work -- either clearing trees or planting more -- and I can't judge that.

It's very tough to separate them, almost splitting hairs.  I think that's one reason they are underrated as a group, and none of them is in the top 100 in America ... no one can decide which is the "chosen one."  On a good day, without the bad trees, every one of them is a 7 on the Doak scale.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Doak's right, they're all really good.  However, based on having played all of them (except Lancaster & Woodcrest) over the past couple of years, I'll share my preference.  

I should mention that the MAJOR differentiating factor at play here is how well in my judgement the course has been maintained consistent with the original architecture, although there are some clear architectural differences, as well.  

Huntingdon Valley
Philadelphia Country Club
Lehigh
Rolling Green
Philmont North
Manufacturers

On the Doak Scale, I'd go as high as 7.5 for HV, to 6 for Mannies to give you some idea of how tightly contested it is.  

[Adam_Messix]

Mike,

The courses that Flynn did in Philadelphia are all really good.  I may even take it a step further to say that I have enjoyed all of Flynn's lesser known work such as Plymouth CC(NC).  

As far as Flynn's work in Philadelphia goes, I am in agreement with you and others that they are generally in the "7" Doak scale with Huntingdon Valley likely nudging up to an 8.  

Huntingdon Valley
Rolling Green
Lancaster
Lehigh
Manufacturers

Jimmy, you could shuffle these courses and rank them in a totally different order and you would not get much of an argument out of me.  

I guess the thing that separates Huntingdon Valley is the number of different types of shots required to play well there....especially when the "C" Nine is factored in.  I also like how they maintain the place, keeping it really hard and fast from tee to green.  

Thinking about it, the best set of Flynn par 3's may be at Manufacturers, especially given the short 8th and the 2 really good uphill par 3s at 6 and 11.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam;

I have no qualms about your "8" at Huntingdon Valley.  It's THAT good and the maintenance meld in place there really brings out its strengths.  

Walking off the course, a Golf Digest rater I was paired with asked me, "Why isn't this course in the Top 100?".  I didn't have a good answer for him.

Also agree with you about Manufacturer's par threes, but thought that there were more pedestrian holes than most Flynn courses, the bunkering is non-descript, and it's probably his tamest set of greens I've seen.  What's more, the tree growth there is completely out of hand and ultimately diminishing to a fine course.  I hope they get that situation under control.

One other note;  I'd advise anyone who hasn't seen it to check out Philly CC, especially now that they've completed a restoration that includes some fabulous bunker work and some pretty radical tree clearing.  It's a JOY!

[Adam_Messix]

Mike,

I agree with Tom Doak that one of the reasons why Huntingdon Valley has not made it into the Golf Digest or Golf Magazine Top 100 is that it has not been annointed "the Flynn" course to play in Philadelphia.  Lancaster CC was highly considered at one time.....  I sometime worry that super courses are sometimes overlooked because they don't have the flashy, memorable holes that some tend to look for.  

On the subject of Manufacturers....some of those evergreens that were planted by the club are AWFUL.  That course would have such a sweeping view if all of those evergreens were removed..they particularly ruin #3 (what would otherwise be the best hole on the course) and #15.  The greens there don't have some of the beautiful contouring that you see at Rolling Green and Huntingdon Valley, but I thought they were subtle enough to hold my interest.  The only green at Manny's I didn't like was #9 because it may be a bit too severe.

[wsmorrison]

Some of the very best design works of Flynn are NLE and this contributes to Flynn's underappreciation.  If it was understood how much Flynn did at The Country Club for instance where he redid all the bunkering, adding quite a few and completely changing the look and playability of all the others and where he redesigned 2 holes on the original 18 and added 9 wonderful holes.  Kittansett Club is a remarkable Flynn rounting and design.  Both Boca Raton courses were magnificent designs that Dan Wexler has recently brought considerable attention to.  Opa Locka, like the Boca courses is NLE, was an outstanding course that many would be surprised was part of Flynn's design spectrum.  The original look of Norfolk CC with its undulating sandy waste areas that Flynn utilized many times on other designs, Yorktown CC's interrupted fairways, Mill Road Farm's test of golf, Indian Creek's great design (hardly anyone gets to see it), Pocantico Hills (even fewer get to see it) as an ingenious reversible course with great greens and wonderful maintenance practices, all need to be considered to truly appreciate Flynn's genius.  

1.      Atlantic City Country Club (CC of Atlantic City):   1923 d27  (Blue nine NLE)
2.      Bala Golf Club:  1922 d9 r9
3.      Boca Raton Resort Club-North Course:  1926 (NLE)
4.      Boca Raton Resort Club-South Course:  1928 (NLE)
5.      Beaver Dam Golf Club:  1927 AKA Prince Georges Country Club  (NLE)
6.      Brinton Lake Club:  1923 AKA Concord Country Club
7.      Cascades Golf Club:  1923
8.      Cherry Hills Country Club:  1923
9.      Cleveland Heights Golf and Country Club:  1925
10.      The Country Club-Pepper Pike:  1930
11.      Country Club of Harrisburg:  1916
12.      Country Club of Virginia-James River Course:  1928
13.      Country Club of York:  1925
14.      Doylestown Country Club:  1916 d9
15.      Eagles Mere Country Club:  1924
16.      East Potomac Public Golf Club
17.      Elyria Country Club:  1925
18.      Floranada South:  1926 (NLE)
19.      Glen View Club:  1922
20.      Hartwellville Country Club (Kilcare GC):  1911 (NLE)
21.      Hercules Powder Country Club:  1935
22.      Huntingdon Valley Country Club:  1927 d27
23.      Indian Creek Country Club:  1930
24.      Indian Spring: 1944 (NLE)
25.      The Kittansett Club:  1923
26.      Lancaster Country Club:  1920
27.      Lehigh Country Club:  1926
28.      Manor Country Club:  1927
29.      Manufacturers Golf and Country Club:  1925 d27
30.      Marble Hall (AKA Green Valley):  1924
31.      McCall Field (Philadelphia Electric):  1923  
32.      Mill Road Farm:  1926 (NLE)
33.      Normandy Shores Golf Club:  1916
34.      Opa Locka:  1926 (NLE)
35.      Pepper Pike Club:  1924
36.      Philadelphia Country Club:  1927
37.      Philmont Country Club (North Course):  1924
38.      Plymouth Country Club (PA):  1925
39.      Plymouth Country Club (NC):  1937 d9
40.      Pocantico Hills Golf Club:  1937
41.      Pocono Manor:  1920
42.      Rock Creek Park Golf Club
43.      Rolling Green Golf Club:  1926
44.      Seaview Country Club (Pines):  1931 d9
45.      Sewell’s Point (Norfolk CC):  1924  
46.      Shinnecock Hills Golf Club:  1931
47.      Springdale Golf Club:  1928
48.      Town and Country (AKA Woodmont):  1921 (NLE)  
49.      The US Naval Academy Golf Club:  1943 d9 r9
50.      Woodcrest Country Club:  1929
51.      Yorktown Country Club:  1923 (NLE)

Golf Courses Redesigned By William S. Flynn

1.      The Burning Tree Club
2.      Columbia Country Club:  1923
3.      The Country Club—Brookline:  1927 d11 r16
4.      The Creek Club:  1927
5.      Denver Country Club:  1923
6.      Friendship Golf Club:  192-
7.      Glen Head Country Club
8.      Gulph Mills Golf Club:  1932
9.      The Homestead Golf Club:  1925
10.      Merion Golf Club-East and West Courses:  1912-1943
11.      Monroe Country Club:  1922
12.      North Hills Country Club
13.      Philadelphia Cricket Club
14.      Pine Valley Golf Club:  1918, 1921, 1929
15.      Springhaven Club:  1929 d9r9
16.      Sunnehanna Country Club:  1937
17.      Sunnybrook Golf Club  (NLE)
18.      The Tuxedo Club
19.      Washington Golf and Country Club:  1919
20.      Westchester Country Club (South and West):  1920
21.      Whitemarsh Valley Country Club

Golf Courses designed by William S. Flynn but never constructed

1.      Miami Beach Polo Club:  1931
2.      Ritz Carlton North:  1925
3.      Ritz Carlton South:  1925
4.      Private course for Robert Cassatt:  1929
5.      Private course for J.F. Manne:  1929
6.      Private course for Dr. G. Woodard

[Paul_Turner]

Only played one Flynn course Lehigh and I like it a lot.  Quick question about Lancaster, wasn't a lot of that course redesigned by someone else?  I think I remember reading that somewhere.

[wsmorrison]

Paul,

I just realized since your question spurred me to look for it that Tom Paul has my Lancaster CC book.  However, as I recall, Flynn arrived at Lancaster in 1919 to lay out 9 holes and redesign the existing 9 holes.  Flynn finished the work by the summer of 1921 when the course opened for play and continued as a consultant until his death in 1945.  In 1940 Flynn supervised a renovation when property on the north side of the Conestoga River was acquired and 4 new holes were built and others redesigned.  The project was completed in 1941 and this rotation of holes is in use today.  The front nine was named the Meadowcreek and the back the Dogwood.  

In the 1970s, the membership tired of the periodic flooding of the Conestoga, brought in William Gordon to design 6 new holes to ensure that there would always be 18 holes available for play.  These holes, the Sunset Six opened for play in 1974.

Brian Silva came in and added a new nine, the Highlands, which opened for play in 1994.

[Mark_Fine]

Ranking those courses to some extent comes down to personal preference.  They are all very good golf courses.  I  do believe, however, that there are two or three that stand out when it comes things like maintenance, hole design and routing.  

HV is maintained the closest to what Flynn envisioned.  It's a blast to play though I'm not a big fan of the C nine.  

Rolling Green is a great design (was just there with Wayne on Thursday).  They are taking out trees (thank goodness) but many more still need to go.  And those bunkers are just not Flynn.  I'm sorry but they really hold the course back!  

Philmont North is way over treed.  Like Mike said it has some great stretches of holes but the full 18 is not in the league with some of Flynn's best.  

Manufacturers is also way over treed.  They are planning bunker restoration work and I hope they do it right!  I think they are still trying to find their way.  I wish they would follow Lehigh's lead.  

Speaking of Lehigh, everyone knows my feeling about the course so I won't elaborate.  I will say this though, the routing is easily the best of the lot.

I've always enjoyed playing Lancaster.  It's a wonderful design and Gil only made it better (despite what some of the members say).  

I also enjoy Philadelphia CC but haven't see it since Forse was in there.  I'm sure he did a great job.  It's an excellent test of golf but just doesn't inspire me as much as some of my Flynn favorites.  I need to see it again.  

[JSlonis]

Mark,

The work done by Forse at Philly CC is wonderful.  They did some massive tree removal and the vistas they opened up are great.  You, being a member at a great Flynn course will certainly appreciate what was done at PCC.

[wsmorrison]

I concur completely with Mark's comments about Rolling Green and its bunker issues.  The architecture of the course and the topography are superb but there are issues.  As stated previously on other threads, we really f***** up on the bunker work.  We had a master plan done by Gil Hanse, quite a good job.  However, the club decided to award the bunker restoration contract to MacDonald and not have an outside architect provide oversight, a mistake that resulted in a look unlike Flynn (whose range of bunker styles is greater than most people are aware) with grassy rolled edges down into the bunker not quite as puffy as another nearby classic, but none the less a real error in design.  Some bunkers are turned around in orientation from their original design and some are just plain in the wrong place- in relation to both greens and fairways.  The drainage is good and the sand consistancy is fine.  Yet, many whose architectural understanding I admire such as Tom Paul, Mark Fine, Adam Messix, Craig Disher, Chris Clouser (Craig and Chris were on site today after checking out Philly Country in the morning and we'll be at Gulph Mills tomorrow) and highly skilled and knowledgeable architects pretty much agree that they are not appropriate for a Flynn course.  There are tree issues, though less than before.  Mayday is certainly a vocal proponent of a proper application of tree management (especially on 7 and 12).  

I do love Huntingdon Valley quite a bit, all the nines.  Their maintenance practices are exemplary and a model for all the Philly area classic courses.  I think it could hold a major tournament with little change from its regular setup.

Lehigh is a brilliant routing and holes with a great deal of character; great job by Ron Forse and John Chissard.  Likewise, Lancaster is a real treat.  

Philadelphia Country Club has done a wonderful job in its restoration.  Tree removal adds to the aesthetic appeal and has resulted in plenty of skyline greens and long vistas.  The bunker work, done in-house by Mike McNulty and crew within the context of Ron Forse's plans is simply terrific.

Manufacturers is severely flawed by their tree problems.  They are planning to do a master plan and restoration and I believe they are talking to the right people and have the members and staff to do it right.  I am not nearly as inspired as many are by this course.  I also think the par 3s are not as good as a whole as the par 3s at Philly CC, Lehigh, or Rolling Green.

By the way, there are some really interesting greens at Flynn's McCall Field Club, the Philadelphia Electric course.  Very short, but neat greens.

I'm not at all big on rankings.  As Tom Doak says, they are all close and all very good.  Here's hoping he comes back to the area soon and sees for himself the improvements and fumbled opportunities on the collection of great courses, Flynn and otherwise in the Philadelphia area.  I'm looking forward to showing him the original and Flynn drawings of Atlantic City CC and others.

Lets not forget that there is an awful lot of Flynn at Merion East and perhaps the West.

[Willie_Dow]

The great work at Philadelphia Country, Spring Mill was a good example of in house work, with an extended experience of knowledge over time by the superintendent - then a good evaluation by a great architect to respond to Flynn's input.

As Mike said, good job!

[George Pazin]

How would you compare Flynn & Ross's Philly courses, style & strategy wise? Say, HV versus Aronimik?

I've only played Lehigh & no Ross (I'm definitely the least well played poster on the site), but the courses I've seen on the tube both seem to be flowing courses with par defended at the green.

Anyone care to help me out in defining differences?

[mike_malone]

I also do not feel comfortable ranking these courses.But i would like to add one consideration to the mix.At Rolling Green,a very important part of its wonderfulness is  the greens.I just commented on Friday how many good pin placements we have on so many of the holes.I would think this is a difficult factor to evaluate in a single round or two.It is one thing to play to many pin placements;it quite another to imagine doing so while standing on the green.I know this adds to the enjoyment of playing the course over and over again.I have not played the other courses enough to make this statement.Rolling Green's  greens can hold up to almost any others.The only other course in the area i have played less than 10 times that compares is Merion.

[Mike_Cirba]

mayday;

I would agree with you about Rolling Green's greens.  They are among the most difficult I've seen from Flynn, and a few like 8, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and even 18 are so treacherous that I'd imagine there are more than a couple of members who've been given a case of yips over the years.  

Ranking Flynn courses in the Philadelphia area might give some people the wrong impression.  It's like going to a fine restaurant and trying to pick between several wonderful entrees.  So much of it comes down to personal preferences, maintenance considerations, and even aesthetics.  In any case, anyone (myself included) attempting to do so is assuredly splitting hairs.

[eaglepower]

    When ranking the Flynn courses, you must keep in mind a few things.  If we look at them from a historical perspective, they are all great golf courses.  But if we take the modern game into account, the rankings must change.  Philly CC took the actions to lengthen several holes during its remodeling and the golf course is great both historically and currently.  A course like Rolling Green remodeled and while it looks great, it is somewhat out of date.  Flynn couldn't foresee the distances that even average golfers would achieve, where some 15 handicaps are proud of their length rather than the rest of their game. There  are other non-Flynn courses in Philly (although judging by WSMorrison's redesign list, he had a hand in everything,which seems unlikely) that have similar problems, but the Merion's and Pine Valley's of the world will always stand up.

      I've gotten chastised in the past for saying this, but I say it with sadness not spite.  Driver\wedge is no way to play a golf course.
  

[Mike_Cirba]

eaglepower;

Sheesh, I'd better start eating my wheaties.  

I don't recall hitting wedge into any par four on the front nine and only #12 on the back (which is a wonderful hole).  Yes, 7, 17, and 18 as par fives are all reachable in two, but how many par fives designed in the 20s aren't today?

And yes, Wayne has documentation on all of the Flynn courses in question.  Why would you doubt that?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike,

#1, 4, and 6 greens are equally treacherous at Rolling Green. I think I hit wedge into #4, but you're right, RG ain't no pitch and putt course.

Eagle,
Is #9 at RG short to you as well?



I agree that amongst the 3 I've played in PA, they are pretty much interchangable, Lehigh, HV, and RG.  HV's C nine has a couple of holes that aren't my favorites, though one is split personalities.  #2 on C nine has a week drive, just a layup off the tee, for a hole (par 4) of decent length.  If not on left side of fairway, then approach is a fairway wood.  However, approach is terrific up the hill, but is better from left side.  #7 is the other wacky hole, with a big drive needed just to carry creek.  A little too much carry needed, I feel.

Woodcrest, not on original list, is a notch below, due to the altered, week holes changed from the road put in years ago.  Par 3's, especially on front nine, are terrific.  Take a chainsaw to the place and widen some fairways, and it's a top hidden gem.

[Mike_Cirba]

Scott;

I'd agree with you about the slope and challenge of those additional greens you mentioned.  The first is particularly dicey.  I was just getting to the point of naming almost every green on the course!

[wsmorrison]

eaglepower,

Would you please tell us in what ways Rolling Green is out of date?  For whom?  Are you talking about it being dated for its everyday practices or the ability to set it up for a short time for a tournament?  

Try reading some of Flynn's writings on the subject of technology and its impact on course design.  Flynn wrote in 1927 at great length on this subject and he designed elasticity into courses where it was feasible.  Yet you say he didn't foresee the concept.  You couldn't be more wrong.

I would also say that Rolling Green does not look great post MacDonald bunker restoration.   Why do you think it does?  The bunker work, especially the grass faces and including the rough surrounds, the fairway contours, and even the mowing patterns are all of a modern style that is inappropriate to a 1926 Flynn.  It would seem however that you like the look.  Why?

Philly CC has done a great job in lengthening and restoring the course. Yet the dynamics at play are different, they are willing to hold national tournaments and this impacts their plans.  Should clubs that fail to modernize the length of their courses for a fractional percentage of the  best golfers be relegated to lower status?  This is one of many reasons I dislike rankings.  If Rolling Green and other Flynn courses are driver-wedge for you, I suspect you must have a lot of course records.  What is your best score at RG from the tips?

The best examples of  Flynn courses that play the way they were intended and where the original designs have stood the test of time are Huntingdon Valley and, of course, Shinnecock.

Lastly, you seem to doubt my list of course work by Flynn.  Do you regard the list with skeptisism based upon an informed analysis?  How much time have you spent studying the list let alone the courses on it?  It would appear that you continuously make broad conclusions based upon cursory analysis.