Has Anyone Played Ayodhya Links in Bangkok?

[David Davis]

Here are a few more photos of Ayodhya Links, though not great ones, you can get an idea however and decide for yourself. Remember it's really tough to make photos of subtleties especially in and around greens. Most of mine didn't turn out or do the course any real justice. There is one decent shot of a green complex below that gives you a good idea of the greens. As mentioned, it's a swamp, they didn't have to create the water hazards, they are already there. The course can be walked in dress shoes, it's that dry and I was there during a wet week and got lucky. That's already an engineering miracle.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'm sure there are people that would like Ayodhya more but I personally would happily spend my winters in Thailand playing Ayodhya and my summer in Scotland playing Kingsbarns.

David how's your search for the perfect winter location going?  Have you played much in Thailand generally? 


I was a little glib above but I do hope to return one day. Once the temps get above 30 degrees I'd rather have my fun in, on and under the water than climb in to a cart. I know you thrive playing Golf in tough conditions, but does that include 35 degrees and high humidity?

[David Davis]

I'm sure there are people that would like Ayodhya more but I personally would happily spend my winters in Thailand playing Ayodhya and my summer in Scotland playing Kingsbarns.

David how's your search for the perfect winter location going?  Have you played much in Thailand generally? 


I was a little glib above but I do hope to return one day. Once the temps get above 30 degrees I'd rather have my fun in, on and under the water than climb in to a cart. I know you thrive playing Golf in tough conditions, but does that include 35 degrees and high humidity?

Tony,


No not a lot in Asia in general only the heavily marketed courses or well known gems. I was there in the start of April. You are right, 35 degrees and that's very hot for me. We did however tee off at 6 am so we were done by the time it became unbearable and we actually walked. You see cards but as you would know the caddies are women and they don't carry your bag, they drive it in buggies. Along with enough water etc and a seat for you to collapse in if needed.


Bill Schultz and I played together there with some friends of mine and as you well know he is anti-cartball.


there are better times of the year to go but it's a long and tiring trip and I didn't want to feel I had to make several journeys to Asia which would take me many years, so I did it all in one go and had to pick times when Vietnam, China and Thailand were still doable while South Korea and Japan were also well into their seasons. Then you make some sacrifices and sweat a little more than you would like.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,


Thanks for the pics and description of your experience. I have little doubt that playing conditions in Scotland are preferable to those in Thailand. Perhaps in comparing Top 100 World courses I should have used Muirfield Village as opposed to Kingsbarns. I would guess the summers and turf in Ohio to be a fair comparison.


note: Saying one top 100 is better than another is not as insulting as it may imply.

[Jim Franklin]

I am hoping pictures do not do this course justice. It looks like a Florida course that is over watered trying to look like Augusta. I do not see any compelling architecture that would have me flying there to play. Pass.

[Sean Ogle]

Good luck Sean, I love seeing civilians get a shot at playing the great privates in the world. If I were you I would write Peter Thompson a letter congratulating him on his recent retirement and great career. He will understand better than anyone that seeing this course juxtaposed against the great works in Scotland would be an excellent learning experience for a gentleman of your curious ilk. In fact a rare experience that shouldn't be missed. You will find yourself in a position that while benefiting yourself has the potential to illuminate the golfing world.Given the blatant discrimination that I have seen levied against Asian golfers though out the world we should all understand why doors are closed to unknown Eurocentric travelers in Asia. Lord knows we've earned it. Just do the work and you'll get to play. It's that simple.

Thanks John! It will be interesting indeed. I also love the term "your curious ilk". I'm just like everyone else here, passionate about golf, and just trying to educate myself further on the finer details on golf course architecture.


Also, writing a letter to Mr. Thompson definitely crossed my mind - so good idea there.


If this trip works out, I'll definitely report back and give you my thoughts!

[Greg Tallman]

Looks like any well conditioned club in Florida. Naples National transplanted in Thailand perhaps? Better greens from all accounts but...

[David Davis]

Gentlemen,


Perhaps you are right about Florida, the only round I've ever played there was at TPC Sawgrass. I wouldn't by any means call Ayodhya a resort course. I did warn you about the photos they do it no justice. It's a flat site. Is it over-watered...good question, not sure, from what I've heard it rains enough there as is and the water table is very very high.


It was not playing as lush as it looks, as I already mentioned the fairways and rough and everything was extremely dry even with the rains they had had. There is a superior drainage system, that's part of the miracle I mentioned. The ball roles considerably on drives and I even played a couple approaches short to let them run on. Not bad on bermuda and not my experience with TPC Sawgrass.


Go out and take photos of Augusta or watch it on TV and it's no where like the real thing. I would say not being the Florida expert that there are some definite similarities, those being: turf, weather, water hazard usage and swamp land (though not to say that all of Florida is swamp land).

[David Davis]

David,


Thanks for the pics and description of your experience. I have little doubt that playing conditions in Scotland are preferable to those in Thailand. Perhaps in comparing Top 100 World courses I should have used Muirfield Village as opposed to Kingsbarns. I would guess the summers and turf in Ohio to be a fair comparison.


note: Saying one top 100 is better than another is not as insulting as it may imply.

Actually, that's not a bad comparison except for turf again as I think Muirfield Village has bent grass if I remember correctly and a very dynamic and hilly property. You are right as well about that not being an insult. However let me make one clear statement here. I'm not saying Ayodhya is top 100 or not. I'm only explaining that I enjoyed the experience and the course and what I thought it's strengths and weaknesses were for me. That to me it's well worth playing, but then again as already pointed out I've not spent any time in Florida to speak of. I did ask another friend who has played and knows Florida golf as good as anyone to chime in. Maybe he will.

[Tom_Doak]

However let me make one clear statement here. I'm not saying Ayodhya is top 100 or not.

Classic !


I could not help myself but to highlight this response.  Guys who are normally 100% ready to provide their opinions of any and every course and whether it "is top 100" [because that's what they are supposedly doing there -- rating it for a top 100 list], suddenly become tongue-tied when asked their opinion of this course. 


I would pay Dick Daley to get one of his friends to administer a few lie detector tests, so we could get to the bottom of what's going on here.


I guess it's not fair for me to be pointing this out about Ayodhya Links, because the truth is there are at least 4 or 5 other courses in the World Top 100 list where the same thing is going on.  I would be fine if everyone would just say it's the best course in Thailand ... but it's hard to do that with a straight face, when none of the people who have been allowed to come and rate the course have bothered to play any other course in Thailand.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike,


What is wrong with the photos? They look great to me.

Those photos look like any one of 100 courses in Florida!

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


What is wrong with the photos? They look great to me.

Those photos look like any one of 100 courses in Florida!

Only if you are wearing blinders. I could easily say that Kingsbarns looks like an Art Hills course on the coast in California, but seriously, what good would that do for anyone?

[Sean Ogle]

So just for a quick update, played Ayodhya Links earlier this week, and had a pretty unique experience.


For one, His Majesty the King had just passed away in Thailand, so understandably, the entire country was in mourning.


This meant, basically there was no one at the course. I literally had the only tee time of the day, yet there were still probably 75 people working there (maintenance, clubhouse etc).


The view from the clubhouse is extremely impressive, looking out over a giant lake and about half of the holes.


It's pretty remarkable what they've accomplished, as you can look at the surrounding land and see just how much marsh was there, and how bad the land was to work with. The fairways got considerable roll, and even though the greens had recently been sanded, you could tell they were very well taken care of.


The course is in phenomenal shape, and I found that even though it's a very penal course with water on every hole, it was more strategic than expected.


The course had a nice variety of holes, and as expected, it was the green complexes and angles into the green that stood out the most for me - very, very good.


Not sure it should be top 100, but after hearing multiple points of view, it did exceed my expectations and I believe it's better than many of the people who have never played it are giving it credit for.

[Tom_Doak]

Not sure it should be top 100, but after hearing multiple points of view, it did exceed my expectations and I believe it's better than many of the people who have never played it are giving it credit for.

That is another nice way to avoid passing judgment on it.


Actually, this is a terrific example of how all the Top 100 lists have destroyed critical thinking about golf architecture.  If you guys just all said it was a fine and interesting course, and you think it's a 6 or a 7 or an 8 on the Doak scale, there would be no controversy at all. 


But the only way a course in Thailand gets any recognition in the rest of the world is if it's pronounced "top 100" material, so everyone has to talk about it by those standards, which is a ridiculously high standard for any course to have to answer to.  The rush to judgment by panelists to declare these new courses "top 100" or "not top 100" after they've been open a year or two is just asinine. 


But saying you are "not sure it is top 100" is just a deliberately super-vague way of avoiding the question of how good you think it is.  "Better than many of the people who have never played it are giving it credit for," could just mean it's not a piece of crap.


Earlier the course was compared to a Florida style course.  So how does it compare to those?  Is it clearly superior to Doral, Bay Hill, Indian Creek, and Pine Tree?  Would anyone ever say it gives Seminole a run for its money?

[Peter Pallotta]

"So how does it compare to those?"

And for me at least we're back to square one.

I've been thinking about this lately, from several angles and after having played a couple of new (to me) courses.

How do we really compare - that is, not how do we think/like to believe we're comparing courses  (e.g. "is it very strategic", "there was a lot of risk-reward Par 5s" etc), but how we actually compare them?

Do we all subconsciously have a little calculator in our heads? Course X had 16 shots that were really scary/interesting, while course Y had only 12; I putted off the green 3 times on X but never on course Y

I'm thinking now that this ranking business is not only not a science, it's not even an art. It's an expression of feeling . And that, by the way, is just fine by me.

But then in that context the best reviews/rankings are from the folks who are most able and willing to put their feelings on the table and out into the world, openly and truthfully (i.e. from their own perspective).

Of course, we're not really used to doing that. 

Bob: How you doing today, Jim?
Jim: Hi'ya Bob. Well, wife's got a cold so I was watching the kids, couldn't get out for the 18 but 9 was okay -- shot a 42. Looking forward to our trip to Disneyland. When we're back I gotta get moving on putting the house up for sale -- prices in our neighbourhood have skyrocketed. We've been there 15 years, no, wait, it was 14, no 13 years -- Jim Jr was 2 when we moved in, no, 3, yeah, he was 3 and he's 17 now so 14 years. Hearing that interest rates are going up, best to sell now, but who knows, what with the election and all. I think that whole racket stinks -- guess we just gotta hold our noses and pick one of them...

Bob's learned everything, and nothing at all, especially not how Jim is actually feeling.       

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

I thinking now that this ranking business is not only not a science, it's not even an art. It's an expression of feeling . And that, by the way, is just fine by me.

But then in that context the best reviews/rankings are from the folks who are most able and willing to put their feelings on the table and out into the world

Bingo.


If you look at golf course architecture as a matter of technical correctness -- as many architects do -- then it doesn't make sense to rate or rank courses at all. 


GOLF DIGEST's ranking is a matter of deciding how well each course matches up with its definition of "greatness," which includes a small component about feelings, but pretends to be more about technical or "objective" standards, even though there is nothing objective about any of it.


However, if you think of golf architecture as a form of art -- and why would you bother writing a critical review if you did not? -- then a review is all about how the course makes you feel, and what makes it special and different from all the rest, instead of what makes it "the same, but better."

[George Pazin]

Would anyone ever say it gives Seminole a run for its money?

Sounds a bit like Sawgrass would be the more interesting comparison - flat swamp land with lots of water. I'd be curious to read someone's analysis comparing and contrasting the two.


Plus, there can't be a whole lot of people who've played both Seminole and Ayodhya...

[Sean Ogle]

Tom,


I haven't played many of the Florida courses, so I can't necessarily make that comparison. I did find it to have some similarities to the Blue Monster (flat, water, bunkers), but was very different than Streamsong, which is my other frame of reference.


I'd give it a Doak 6 maybe a 7 if I were going to stretch it.


When I said "not sure if it's top 100" I was absolutely being deliberately vague. In all honesty, you guys are an intimidating bunch. I'm slowly increasing my architecture IQ as I play more courses, but it still pales in comparison to the knowledge of most of the people here. Not making bold statements is more about confidence, than trying to hide the way I feel about a course.


Bill, I should rephrase, you can see greens/flagsticks of about half the holes from the clubhouse. I also just reviewed my photos and there is water or marsh grasses that come into play in one form or another on 16 holes by my count. Sorry for misspeaking.


As for the 8th, it was one of my favorite holes on the course, and also forced me to make one of my biggest decisions of the round.


Here's the hole Bill is referencing:





Also sorry if the formatting/quality sucks on this, still always have issues with images in this forum.


I was 230 out sitting up in the right rough, and debated for a good 2-3 minutes between laying up and hitting 3 wood. I went for it knowing it would have to be a perfect shot, which was absolutely the wrong decision given the pin placement. It kicked hard right into the water, but I still got up and down for par.


The risk reward was there, the strategy was there, and I really enjoyed it.


I appreciate all of the thoughts you guys have shared here, it's conversations like this, that force me to be more upfront and bold in my opinions, which will only make my travels that much more valuable and fulfilling.

[Niall C]

If I played that course I could very well sum it up the same way as Sean, who knows. I could also reasonably add that I've no idea whether it was in the Top 100 (of what ?) on the basis I hadn't played a representative sample of those courses in the Top 100. Would that make my prior comments wrong or worthless ?

Niall

[paul cowley]

I thinking now that this ranking business is not only not a science, it's not even an art. It's an expression of feeling . And that, by the way, is just fine by me.

But then in that context the best reviews/rankings are from the folks who are most able and willing to put their feelings on the table and out into the world

Bingo.


If you look at golf course architecture as a matter of technical correctness -- as many architects do -- then it doesn't make sense to rate or rank courses at all. 


GOLF DIGEST's ranking is a matter of deciding how well each course matches up with its definition of "greatness," which includes a small component about feelings, but pretends to be more about technical or "objective" standards, even though there is nothing objective about any of it.


However, if you think of golf architecture as a form of art -- and why would you bother writing a critical review if you did not? -- then a review is all about how the course makes you feel, and what makes it special and different from all the rest, instead of what makes it "the same, but better."

Tom...the only time I think of golf architecture as a form of art is when I see a framed pretty photo of Pebble or Pacific Dunes hanging on a wall. Otherwise I think of golf architecture as the design and construction of a 3D playing field that provides for different physical strategies and visuals, combined with an understanding of how these stimuli affect the emotions/needs of the people who will be playing.


Something like that.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom...the only time I think of golf architecture as a form of art is when I see a framed pretty photo of Pebble or Pacific Dunes hanging on a wall. Otherwise I think of golf architecture as the design and construction of a 3D playing field that provides for different physical strategies and visuals, combined with an understanding of how these stimuli affect the emotions/needs of the people who will be playing.

Paul:


I think this was the wrong thread for that discussion, but ... if you are constructing something in 3D that affects the emotions of the people playing, that is a form of art.  It's functional art, yes, but it's still art.


My wife and kids don't really play golf or care much about it, but when I take them to a golf course, they seem to have a pretty good innate sense for whether it's any good or not, irrespective of whether the bunkers are in the right place strategically.  If it looks interesting, it probably is.

[George Pazin]

If I played that course I could very well sum it up the same way as Sean, who knows. I could also reasonably add that I've no idea whether it was in the Top 100 (of what ?) on the basis I hadn't played a representative sample of those courses in the Top 100. Would that make my prior comments wrong or worthless ?

Niall

Nope.

[Tom_Doak]

I'd give it a Doak 6 maybe a 7 if I were going to stretch it.

When I said "not sure if it's top 100" I was absolutely being deliberately vague. In all honesty, you guys are an intimidating bunch. I'm slowly increasing my architecture IQ as I play more courses, but it still pales in comparison to the knowledge of most of the people here. Not making bold statements is more about confidence, than trying to hide the way I feel about a course.

Sean:


Sorry to put you on the spot.  But if you are saying the course is a 6 or possibly a 7 on the Doak scale, that puts it solidly in the top 500 in the world, but almost certainly not in the top 100.  If it's a 5, as Mr. Schulz proposes, then it's not in the top 500 except for raters who insist on placing token entries for courses in other countries.


Of course, as Niall says, it's impossible to say yea or nay if you haven't seen enough of the top 100 to have a sense of that threshold.  So, out of curiosity, how many of the current top 100 have you played?  And did you enjoy Ayodhya more than some of those?

[Greg Tallman]

Tom...the only time I think of golf architecture as a form of art is when I see a framed pretty photo of Pebble or Pacific Dunes hanging on a wall. Otherwise I think of golf architecture as the design and construction of a 3D playing field that provides for different physical strategies and visuals, combined with an understanding of how these stimuli affect the emotions/needs of the people who will be playing.

Paul:


I think this was the wrong thread for that discussion, but ... if you are constructing something in 3D that affects the emotions of the people playing, that is a form of art.  It's functional art, yes, but it's still art.


My wife and kids don't really play golf or care much about it, but when I take them to a golf course, they seem to have a pretty good innate sense for whether it's any good or not, irrespective of whether the bunkers are in the right place strategically.  If it looks interesting, it probably is.

Don't let Paul's typing fool you... if he walks like and artist, thinks like an artist and talks like an artist... he's likely a golf course designer living in Cabo.

[David Davis]

Sean,


Glad you had the chance to see it! Thanks for the feedback. Please post more photos as that would be great to see them. Looks like you had a solid day and it would be nice if this thread had more visual examples of the course with discussion about actual holes etc. I don't have any photos left to post and don't feel that the ones I did post are great but that's all I had.


Thanks