Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's

[Tim Pitner]

Having played the old Lowry course in the Denver area, I can attest to what an incredible transformation Tom Doak and company accomplished at Common Ground.  But, to quibble a bit, Common Ground is essentially a new course, not a renovation of Lowry.  And that's probably what's required to take a 3 to a 5 or beyond in most cases.

   Tim, I have not played Common Ground but I recall people saying the land wasn't that great.  There are many courses with good land that have been jacked up at some decade in the last century.  So being blessed with great land helps.  Full renovations are fine, but they require more $$$.  Which is fine if your market is under served.  There are many instances where re-routing 2-4 holes may get an extra point out of me with a rating.  Tree removal and lines changed, firm presentation is another point for me too.  The re-routing of 2-4 holes and moving irrigation lines for those purposes, I do Not know how costly that would be.  Also making deals with Tree companies where the owner plays golf helps!

Ben, it's true that the land for Common Ground isn't that inspiring and I hear what you're saying.  But, unless there's been real architectural malpractice or neglect over the years, most of the courses with good bones probably aren't 3s. 

[BCowan]

Doak 3- About the level of the average golf course in the world.  (Since I don't go out of my way to see average courses, my scale is deliberately skewed to split hairs among the good, the better, and the best)

Tim,

    I'm not sure what an example of a Doak 3 is.  If Tom could give me an example of one in the state of Michigan or Ohio that would be great.  There are many courses laid out by amateurs or people who just loved the game, many which sit on very good land.   The owner/local Archie built a course for their community (Quest for Community) what a noble idea.  They may have gotten 75% of the routing decent enough but failed to understand strategy, tying in contours with greens, planting Christmas trees on the course wasn't a good idea, improving greens and green entrances for firm conditions, using existing land feature (rivers, ditches) to their full potential.  One thing I don't know is how expensive it would be to move irrigation on re-routing/shifting a few holes to improve the overall hole.   Steady as she goes!   

[Tom_Doak]

Doak 3- About the level of the average golf course in the world.  (Since I don't go out of my way to see average courses, my scale is deliberately skewed to split hairs among the good, the better, and the best)

Tim,

    I'm not sure what an example of a Doak 3 is.  If Tom could give me an example of one in the state of Michigan or Ohio that would be great.

Ben:  For Michigan:


Antrim Dells, Hidden River, Manitou Passage, Traverse City CC, Mistwood, Twin Birch, Wequetonsing

[Jason Topp]

This topic makes me think of my Childhood course - Waveland in Des Moines, Iowa.  I would guess it will be rated a 3 in the upcoming book.  I think it could get to a 4 by taking out the right trees and changing the mowing lines to take better advantage of its wonderful fairway undulations and possibly adding a couple of fairway bunkers on the right holes.  Getting to a 5 would require blowing up the greens which are for the most part domed ovals that were likely built by an engineer in the 50's when a freeway was built through the course.

I have no idea what that work would cost but the place seems busy now and charges a $24 green fee.  Is it worth the extra $10-15 to the customers of a municipal course to play a 5 rather than a 3?  I have my doubts. 

[BCowan]

I think Todd Eckenrode's work (don't know the budget but likely in this range) at Brentwood CC in Los Angeles would qualify.


1 or two re done greensites, tree removal, some bunker work, and better maintained barranca's moved the course from a high 3 to a solid 5.

Alex,

   Great post, this is exactly what I'm looking for. 

[Buck Wolter]

Doak 3- About the level of the average golf course in the world.  (Since I don't go out of my way to see average courses, my scale is deliberately skewed to split hairs among the good, the better, and the best)

Tim,

    I'm not sure what an example of a Doak 3 is.  If Tom could give me an example of one in the state of Michigan or Ohio that would be great.

Ben:  For Michigan:


Antrim Dells, Hidden River, Manitou Passage, Traverse City CC, Mistwood, Twin Birch, Wequetonsing

Tom- Did all the work at Manitou (nee King's Challenge) bump it from a 2 to a 3?

[BCowan]

Two words come to mind off Ben's post: debt and differentiate.

I'm convinced the golfers know/appreciate a good golf course, and one that is better than the one next door. A renovation doesn't have to make a 3 into a 5 or a 4 into a 6; if you manage to turn a 2 into a 3, that is a big difference,  and will mean more rounds (take away from the neighbouring course(s) that remain 2s).

My 'home course' is a semi private built inexpensively in 1970 by 3 brothers/owners, and now run by their children (one of whom is the super - and a very good one from what I can tell). I'm told by long time members that everything was paid for and going along swimmingly until the late 1980s, when - you guessed it -- a big new clubhouse was built.

It was financed at high interest rates and there was lots of debts and acrimony and buy-outs, and then higher prices for memberships and for food and beverages and some folks stopped being members and many others curtailed their eating/drinking/socializing at the club.

It is still a good and friendly place to play, walkable and well-condition, but oh -- if they would only have spent a fraction (50%? 25%?) on renovating some greens and some bunkers instead of spending twice or four-times as much on a clubhouse that hardly anyone uses, how much better off would they have been.

Small, steady, golf-focused steps with the implicit belief that golf architecture matters, and that golf-related differentiation combined with little/no debt is they key to a good (if still modest) bottom line in both the short and long term.

Good and engaging design matters to all golfers, I'm convinced of that -- even if they don't have the language to express it.     

Peter,

   well said and I agree 100%.  I'll add ''Steady as she goes'' to the 2 listed above.  I understand that it is cheaper to do everything at once, but if one can't afford to risk that, better to do a long term plan implementation.  Private clubs have or are suppose to have long term plans, why not publics?  It would be more cost efficient imo for an up and coming ''young blood in his/her eyes'' type to deal with 1-2 owners of a public course then a board at a private club.  I also believe there are cheaper methods to introduce new grasses and certain other improvements that doesn't have to be done in a streamline one size fits all manner that the private clubs do. 

[BCowan]

moved to OP

[Terry Lavin]

This model already happened. Dave Esler turned Ravisloe into a 5 a long time ago. Bunkers, trees, expanded greens and some drainage.

[BCowan]

Ravisloe is a 7 in current standing.  Some of the most interesting Ross holes one could find, despite its over treed and soft presentation. 

[Jud_T]

Ravisloe is a 7 in current standing.  Some of the most interesting Ross holes one could find, despite its over treed and soft presentation.

Except for the fact that all 7 par 4's from #8-#17 vary in distance from 390-410.  I really like the place, it's one of the best publics in the metro area IMO, but saying it's worth a 100 mile trip just to see it (the definition of a 7) if you're not a navel-gazing Ross freak is a bit of a stretch.

[Greg Chambers]

I think Todd Eckenrode's work (don't know the budget but likely in this range) at Brentwood CC in Los Angeles would qualify.


1 or two re done greensites, tree removal, some bunker work, and better maintained barranca's moved the course from a high 3 to a solid 5.

Alex,

   Great post, this is exactly what I'm looking for.

While I can agree that the work that was done at Brentwood is nothing short of fantastic, I can assure you that it doesn't fit the model of $500K-$1,2Mil

[BCowan]

Ravisloe is a 7 in current standing.  Some of the most interesting Ross holes one could find, despite its over treed and soft presentation.

Except for the fact that all 7 par 4's from #8-#17 vary in distance from 390-410.  I really like the place, it's one of the best publics in the metro area IMO, but saying it's worth a 100 mile trip just to see it (the definition of a 7) if you're not a navel-gazing Ross freak is a bit of a stretch.

Jez are you a rater now?  Take 8 and 9 for instance one plays down hill the other plays slightly uphill.  I have stated before that I wish Ross and other golden agers had more tee progression.  The fact u don't have the Rav in Chicago top 25 is a crime.  The Rav pimps the 2 Colt tracks in North America and Barton Hills.  It's worth a 100 mile trip and dealing with horrendous windy city traffic any day!  The only better set of par 5s then the Rav I've played is Old Town and Mid Pines is about tied, MP might be better.  I don't care who designed it, I am very fond of Alison, Colt, Mack, and Willie Park jr

Okay let's get back to turning 3's into 5's for under $1.2million

[Alex Miller]

I think Todd Eckenrode's work (don't know the budget but likely in this range) at Brentwood CC in Los Angeles would qualify.


1 or two re done greensites, tree removal, some bunker work, and better maintained barranca's moved the course from a high 3 to a solid 5.

Alex,

   Great post, this is exactly what I'm looking for.

While I can agree that the work that was done at Brentwood is nothing short of fantastic, I can assure you that it doesn't fit the model of $500K-$1,2Mil

Well they replaced all their putting surfaces (due to planting bent less than 10 years ago for some reason), but I'd imagine the finished product compared to what was there when they started would run close to that amount in most markets, no?

[Mike Schott]

Ben, in today's golf environment do you think it's feasible for a public course to raise fees by 30+% and expect a 30% increase in rounds played? There are not enough enthusiast golfers and there's too much competition for the typical public fee golfer to make this a good business decision IMO.

[Jud_T]

The fact u don't have the Rav in Chicago top 25 is a crime.  The Rav pimps the 2 Colt tracks in North America and Barton Hills.  It's worth a 100 mile trip and dealing with horrendous windy city traffic any day

Who says I don't have it in the Top 25?  There were exactly 4 courses that rated 7 or 8 in the Chicago area in the original CG:  Chicago GC, Medinah #3, Olympia Fields North and Shoreacres.  The Rav is a fun track with some cool Ross greens but it surely doesn't sniff that company, or Skokie or Old Elm. 

[BCowan]

The fact u don't have the Rav in Chicago top 25 is a crime.  The Rav pimps the 2 Colt tracks in North America and Barton Hills.  It's worth a 100 mile trip and dealing with horrendous windy city traffic any day

Who says I don't have it in the Top 25?  There were exactly 4 courses that rated 7 or 8 in the Chicago area in the original CG:  Chicago GC, Medinah #3, Olympia Fields North and Shoreacres.  The Rav is a fun track with some cool Ross greens but it surely doesn't sniff that company, or Skokie or Old Elm.

The Rav pimps Old Elm.  I already went hole for hole with OE and the Rav.  Skokie haven't played.  If the Rav had a wealthy membership and Doak gave it a 7, ud follow lock stop and barrel. At least the Rav doesn't have a floating irrigation pond on one of its better holes

[Terry Lavin]

Opinionated, poorly informed and recalcitrant (grab a dictionary, bub). The gca.com manifestation of a Trump guy. I guess Spaulding had arrested development.

[BCowan]

Coming from a guy who is often wrong and never in doubt.  Notice how u fail to back up any of ur remarks with anything other then elitist vocabulary.  I'd love to go hole for hole with u to expose ur ignorance and idiocy. Ur the GCA version of smails, u can't buy class  old boy

[Terry Lavin]

Coming from a guy who is often wrong and never in doubt.  Notice how u fail to back up any of ur remarks with anything other then elitist vocabulary.  I'd love to go hole for hole with u to expose ur ignorance and idiocy. Ur the GCA version of smails, u can't buy class  old boy

I shouldn't argue with the disabled. But you make it so satisfying. Learning how to think, communicate and type must be hard with all of that vape cloud around your head. Bottom line on the current kerfuffle: Ravisloe is overshadowed by four courses within a mile of its front door. Fortunately you haven't gotten an invite to those yet, so you can revel in conning yourself into thinking that your round at the Rav was magical. You've played it once, twice?  I've  played it fifty times.  It's a nice course made better by a great architect. You're alone in your over estimation of its merits. Wait for the next Confidential Guide and you can argue with Doak.

[BCowan]

Coming from a guy who is often wrong and never in doubt.  Notice how u fail to back up any of ur remarks with anything other then elitist vocabulary.  I'd love to go hole for hole with u to expose ur ignorance and idiocy. Ur the GCA version of smails, u can't buy class  old boy

I shouldn't argue with the disabled. But you make it so satisfying. Learning how to think, communicate and type must be hard with all of that vape cloud around your head. Bottom line on the current kerfuffle: Ravisloe is overshadowed by four courses within a mile of its front door. Fortunately you haven't gotten an invite to those yet, so you can revel in conning yourself into thinking that your round at the Rav was magical. You've played it once, twice?  I've  played it fifty times.  It's a nice course made better by a great architect. You're alone in your over estimation of its merits. Wait for the next Confidential Guide and you can argue with Doak.

You haven't posted any architectural significant posts in 3 years.  I know using big words helps disguise the fact how little you know about architecture.  You are so insecure it's sad, but I can see through your pompous act.  You have group thought on your side, wow.  Doak never saw it renovated genius.  Doak and I can agree to disagee.  The difference between you and I is I can back my reasons up and they are insightful unlike your big vocabulary to mask your inferiority complex.  I could play a course twice  to your 50 and make so many great insights to your drivel.  Go take ur classless posts over to schackleford site

[PCCraig]

Coming from a guy who is often wrong and never in doubt.  Notice how u fail to back up any of ur remarks with anything other then elitist vocabulary.  I'd love to go hole for hole with u to expose ur ignorance and idiocy. Ur the GCA version of smails, u can't buy class  old boy

I shouldn't argue with the disabled. But you make it so satisfying.

HA! 

[BCowan]

Doak 3- About the level of the average golf course in the world.  (Since I don't go out of my way to see average courses, my scale is deliberately skewed to split hairs among the good, the better, and the best)

Tim,

    I'm not sure what an example of a Doak 3 is.  If Tom could give me an example of one in the state of Michigan or Ohio that would be great.

Ben:  For Michigan:


Antrim Dells, Hidden River, Manitou Passage, Traverse City CC, Mistwood, Twin Birch, Wequetonsing

Tom,

Hidden river is the only one I've played.  I agree the routing is a nightmare.  I know a few people who love the track.  I'll have to play a couple more u listed in the future

[BCowan]

Ben, in today's golf environment do you think it's feasible for a public course to raise fees by 30+% and expect a 30% increase in rounds played? There are not enough enthusiast golfers and there's too much competition for the typical public fee golfer to make this a good business decision IMO.

Mike,

     It depends what market your talking about.  The quality of the other publics.  Northville hills charges $65 and Shepards hollow charges $85 on the weekend.  So if one is charging $50 id think a full blown reno/redo is prob needed with greatly improved turf.  Also a bigger sector that gets overlpoked is season passes and restricted member times for committed golfers. The more of those you have the more u can raise weekend rates for the guy who plays 5 times a year and wants nice course/conditions.  Mid pines and pine needles as higher end example of adding members enabling them to raise resort rates.  There are many disgruntled private members that are looking for different models.  Value and quality. 

[Mike Schott]

Ben, in today's golf environment do you think it's feasible for a public course to raise fees by 30+% and expect a 30% increase in rounds played? There are not enough enthusiast golfers and there's too much competition for the typical public fee golfer to make this a good business decision IMO.

Mike,

     It depends what market your talking about.  The quality of the other publics.  Northville hills charges $65 and Shepards hollow charges $85 on the weekend.  So if one is charging $50 id think a full blown reno/redo is prob needed with greatly improved turf.  Also a bigger sector that gets overlpoked is season passes and restricted member times for committed golfers. The more of those you have the more u can raise weekend rates for the guy who plays 5 times a year and wants nice course/conditions.  Mid pines and pine needles as higher end example of adding members enabling them to raise resort rates.  There are many disgruntled private members that are looking for different models.  Value and quality.

Northville Hills is in a very high end community and is Palmer. Shephard's Hollow is a very high end public course. The hard part is taking a good public track known for reasonable pricing and moving it upscale. I only know the Detroit market, but it's oversaturated and I'm not sure it could support another higher end course.