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Andrew Simpson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2016, 07:41:51 PM »
Is this typically how master plans are done in the UK?  The membership votes on each individual proposal and winds up with some of what was proposed, but probably not all?  It seems like it would tend to lead to work that looks not quite done.


I don't know that I have ever heard of a club in the U.S. doing it the same way.  There is a committee process that sorts out the final recommendations, but I've never dealt with a "line-item veto".
The members have a say on each point on their own course and not going with the overall tweaks of a designer, how audacious!

With your experience you know clubs in the UK and US are not run the same way. I understand the proposal speak in trying to put it over as an overall scheme as Ally puts it. Looking at the proposals they aren't exactly creating uniformity but more adding individual changes along with clearing some gorse and some appear to be changes for changes sake.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2016, 06:17:03 AM »
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.  The members of the Club disagreed with most of those comments, as well as mine, but c'est la democracie!
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2016, 11:26:29 PM »
Is this typically how master plans are done in the UK?  The membership votes on each individual proposal and winds up with some of what was proposed, but probably not all?  It seems like it would tend to lead to work that looks not quite done.


I don't know that I have ever heard of a club in the U.S. doing it the same way.  There is a committee process that sorts out the final recommendations, but I've never dealt with a "line-item veto".
The members have a say on each point on their own course and not going with the overall tweaks of a designer, how audacious!

With your experience you know clubs in the UK and US are not run the same way. I understand the proposal speak in trying to put it over as an overall scheme as Ally puts it. Looking at the proposals they aren't exactly creating uniformity but more adding individual changes along with clearing some gorse and some appear to be changes for changes sake.


The other problem is that architects may be inclined to suggest a bunch of changes in hopes that at least a few pass muster.  The way we do it in the U.S., there is a bit of a resistance toward proposing many changes for fear that the project will be voted down altogether.


Of course, in most of my consulting work, I'm proposing restoring old features, rather than building new ones.  It is funny sometimes to listen to committee people try to tell me why Tillinghast or MacKenzie's original version won't work well today.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2016, 03:34:07 AM »
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.  The members of the Club disagreed with most of those comments, as well as mine, but c'est la democracie!


Rich,
Did all of the proposals get the go ahead then?
Thanks
Tom

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2016, 12:45:54 AM »
Tom


See Alexander MacDdonald's comments (#63) above.


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2016, 07:06:12 AM »
My wife and I had the privilege of playing Royal Dornoch 5 times. It was maybe 30 years ago, my memories of those 3 specific holes are long gone but we loved the the entire experience, I'm sure you will do the right thing so for future players and visitors.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2019, 05:32:11 PM »
https://www.urbanrealm.com/news/8225/_Royal_Dornoch_Golf_Club_looks_to_the_future_with_a_new_clubhouse.html


New Clubhouse gets planning consent at Dornoch.


Looking at the plans on the council website, a huge amount of money and space being used up storing members clubs and trolleys.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2019, 05:57:06 PM »
The old club house/pro shop remains as per render?


Wonder if that could eventually be converted into an indoor practice facility.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2019, 02:56:39 AM »
Assuming the current building isn't riddled with something structurally unpleasant that cannot be fixed for a reasonable price then this project seems like a case of having too much money available to spend.
atb

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2019, 03:19:32 AM »
https://www.urbanrealm.com/news/8225/_Royal_Dornoch_Golf_Club_looks_to_the_future_with_a_new_clubhouse.html


New Clubhouse gets planning consent at Dornoch.


Looking at the plans on the council website, a huge amount of money and space being used up storing members clubs and trolleys.


Thank you for the heads up Ryan


Here is a link to the planning drawings which gives more detail - I would suggest looking at the Design and Access Statement it is impressive and professional


https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=PV3L2ZIHHLV00


I would be interested to see what other peoples opinions of this design is on this forum. I have heard of Keppie Design they are quite well known in Scotland


http://www.keppiedesign.co.uk
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 03:28:14 AM by Ben Stephens »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2019, 05:29:23 AM »
I have not been to Royal Dornoch but it certainly is on "the list". I am definitely in the small low key clubhouse kind of category, but RD would seem to be in "special status" as an iconic club, so it seems reasonable to re-build. My review is based on the three pictures presented in the article:

I am assuming this is the front entrance, and I get that they were going for an old look, but it looks cold and unwelcoming to me. I am not a fan of the awkward sizing of the windows, the logo sort of replacing a window, and the lack of windows on this side (I want to welcome my guest and meet them at the door when you see them walking up.) The entrance doors are small and almost hidden. I am guessing that lockers are on the basement floor, so the lack of windows on that level makes sense, but it still needs some warmth on the entrance side:


From this angle, I love the way the new clubhouse sits and it looks like there will be a 2nd floor porch, similar to Lahinch, where you can watch your friends and fellow golfers play in. Since they are not showing any ocean views, I am assuming that the course routing stays the same. A good thing as too often they re-position the clubhouse to maximize ocean views.


In picture #2 above, the porch looks higher up, but not here in the dining room view. Regardless of height, it reminds me of Streamsong, which grew on me over time. I like the TWA Terminal kind of throwback, and in fact they just opened an updated TWA Hotel in the old TWA Terminal at JFK:



"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2019, 01:15:01 PM »
Unless I missed it the membership at RDGC has not agreed to build a new clubhouse. Indeed it was rejected recently when they were asked. Just to be clear getting planning permission is irrelevant in as much as I could put in for planning permission to turn the course at Dornoch into a giant caravan park and I might well get it as well but that does not mean it will happen. You do not have to own the land or building to get planning permission on it here in Scotland.

Michael Baity

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2019, 02:51:38 PM »
Now just move the 18th Green 125 yards back to the present practice green and you have the finisher this course deserves.  May need to move the public beach road slightly (good luck getting approval for that), but the 18th at TOC pulls this off well and would add some uniqueness to the second shot.  Would be great finishing by the clubhouse although the long holes (9, 12 and 18) would all be in the similar direction.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2019, 03:16:37 PM »
Unless I missed it the membership at RDGC has not agreed to build a new clubhouse. Indeed it was rejected recently when they were asked. Just to be clear getting planning permission is irrelevant in as much as I could put in for planning permission to turn the course at Dornoch into a giant caravan park and I might well get it as well but that does not mean it will happen. You do not have to own the land or building to get planning permission on it here in Scotland.
Good point Jon. At the end of the day the decision is likely to be member based so I trust all those involved read the rules and regulations of the club and understand precisely who can and who can’t vote in such a decision including less obvious details such as whether not only those attending the appropriate meetings can vote or whether absentees can vote too. Complicated subject where things can go awry if not handled properly.
Atb
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 04:00:45 PM by Thomas Dai »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2019, 03:41:12 PM »
I too thought the membership turned down the new house proposal. So I was surprised to see approval for a (much different) plan. Why would somebody pay to go through the planning process if they weren't confident the proposal would eventually pass? Out of interest, in Scotland, how long does the applicant have to put spade in the ground to meet planning conditions?

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2019, 03:05:11 AM »
I too thought the membership turned down the new house proposal. So I was surprised to see approval for a (much different) plan. Why would somebody pay to go through the planning process if they weren't confident the proposal would eventually pass? Out of interest, in Scotland, how long does the applicant have to put spade in the ground to meet planning conditions?

Happy Hockey


Assuming that Scotland follows England and Wales planning laws if so it is 3 years before planning permission elapses. All they need is to start part of the foundations (or footings) and build it for as long as they like to 'activate' the planning permit.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2019, 08:26:07 AM »
I have heard that this clubhouse project was approved by their membership earlier this year and will start in late 2020.




Also a feature I really like about Royal Dornoch is the flags they fly by their sign which changes daily.  I have learned that this is by design and s sign of a very welcoming club indeed:





Every day different flags are flown to represent the countries in which our members/visitors have come from for that particular day.

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2019, 05:46:08 PM »
I too thought the membership turned down the new house proposal. So I was surprised to see approval for a (much different) plan. Why would somebody pay to go through the planning process if they weren't confident the proposal would eventually pass? Out of interest, in Scotland, how long does the applicant have to put spade in the ground to meet planning conditions?

Happy Hockey


Assuming that Scotland follows England and Wales planning laws if so it is 3 years before planning permission elapses. All they need is to start part of the foundations (or footings) and build it for as long as they like to 'activate' the planning permit.



Scottish planning laws are often quite different to those in England. Off the top of my head I think it is 5 years but am not too sure this is correct. What is important is getting the foundations in.


Jeff,


I have not heard anything about the membership passing a plan to BUILD a new clubhouse and that sort of thing is usually quite well known locally so I am sceptical about it being the case though it is not impossible.


Jon

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2019, 06:15:45 PM »


I have not heard anything about the membership passing a plan to BUILD a new clubhouse and that sort of thing is usually quite well known locally so I am sceptical about it being the case though it is not impossible.

Jon


As a USA fan of "The Crown", I am pretty sure they don't tell you everything:





Amazing show. It makes me want to like Prince Philip, and join Royal Portcrawl (Wales).


I have absolutely no interest in ever seeing Bandon.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2020, 06:19:49 AM »

Well I do stand corrected :D


RDGC has had planning permission for a new clubhouse which will be situated nearer to the 18th green than at present. This move comes at the same time as the lease of the land goes from £150 a year up to £50,000 indexed linked and reviewed every 5 years.


Jon

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2020, 07:39:39 AM »
Jon


I'm assuming they have just renewed the ground lease for a lengthy period ? If so, depending on how it's worded, they could come to regret the index linked rent review.


So is the new clubhouse definitely going ahead ? Sorry, if I missed the news but I wasn't aware it had been settled.


Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2020, 09:20:47 AM »
When I first went to Ballybunion in 1983, the only thing I can remember about the clubhouse was that it was fairly small, and pretty dark inside.


However I distinctly remember the first time I went back to their new modern clubhouse, getting to the front door and having it slide open, like I was entering an American big box store.  The feeling of intimacy was no more.  It doesn't ruin the experience of Ballybunion for me, but it clearly gives the impression that their purpose is to take cash from visitors.  I hope Dornoch has not gone that way.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2020, 10:37:36 AM »
Speaking of clubhouses, I just read that Walton Heath was denied permission to build a new one, which would have been built on the course grounds, but across Dorking Road. The funding for this new course would have come from demolishing the existing clubhouse and building 13 new homes. I have played WH a few times, and the putting green in front of the existing clubhouse is wonderful (for both pre and post game activities). 
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

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