The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey

[Andrew Simpson]

Is this typically how master plans are done in the UK?  The membership votes on each individual proposal and winds up with some of what was proposed, but probably not all?  It seems like it would tend to lead to work that looks not quite done.


I don't know that I have ever heard of a club in the U.S. doing it the same way.  There is a committee process that sorts out the final recommendations, but I've never dealt with a "line-item veto".

The members have a say on each point on their own course and not going with the overall tweaks of a designer, how audacious!

With your experience you know clubs in the UK and US are not run the same way. I understand the proposal speak in trying to put it over as an overall scheme as Ally puts it. Looking at the proposals they aren't exactly creating uniformity but more adding individual changes along with clearing some gorse and some appear to be changes for changes sake.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.  The members of the Club disagreed with most of those comments, as well as mine, but c'est la democracie!

[Tom_Doak]

Is this typically how master plans are done in the UK?  The membership votes on each individual proposal and winds up with some of what was proposed, but probably not all?  It seems like it would tend to lead to work that looks not quite done.


I don't know that I have ever heard of a club in the U.S. doing it the same way.  There is a committee process that sorts out the final recommendations, but I've never dealt with a "line-item veto".

The members have a say on each point on their own course and not going with the overall tweaks of a designer, how audacious!

With your experience you know clubs in the UK and US are not run the same way. I understand the proposal speak in trying to put it over as an overall scheme as Ally puts it. Looking at the proposals they aren't exactly creating uniformity but more adding individual changes along with clearing some gorse and some appear to be changes for changes sake.

The other problem is that architects may be inclined to suggest a bunch of changes in hopes that at least a few pass muster.  The way we do it in the U.S., there is a bit of a resistance toward proposing many changes for fear that the project will be voted down altogether.


Of course, in most of my consulting work, I'm proposing restoring old features, rather than building new ones.  It is funny sometimes to listen to committee people try to tell me why Tillinghast or MacKenzie's original version won't work well today.

[Tom Kelly]

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.  The members of the Club disagreed with most of those comments, as well as mine, but c'est la democracie!

Rich,
Did all of the proposals get the go ahead then?
Thanks
Tom

[Rich Goodale]

Tom


See Alexander MacDdonald's comments (#63) above.


Rich

[cary lichtenstein]

My wife and I had the privilege of playing Royal Dornoch 5 times. It was maybe 30 years ago, my memories of those 3 specific holes are long gone but we loved the the entire experience, I'm sure you will do the right thing so for future players and visitors.

[Ryan Coles]

https://www.urbanrealm.com/news/8225/_Royal_Dornoch_Golf_Club_looks_to_the_future_with_a_new_clubhouse.html


New Clubhouse gets planning consent at Dornoch.


Looking at the plans on the council website, a huge amount of money and space being used up storing members clubs and trolleys.

[MClutterbuck]

The old club house/pro shop remains as per render?


Wonder if that could eventually be converted into an indoor practice facility.

[Thomas Dai]

Assuming the current building isn't riddled with something structurally unpleasant that cannot be fixed for a reasonable price then this project seems like a case of having too much money available to spend.
atb

[Ben Stephens]

https://www.urbanrealm.com/news/8225/_Royal_Dornoch_Golf_Club_looks_to_the_future_with_a_new_clubhouse.html


New Clubhouse gets planning consent at Dornoch.


Looking at the plans on the council website, a huge amount of money and space being used up storing members clubs and trolleys.

Thank you for the heads up Ryan


Here is a link to the planning drawings which gives more detail - I would suggest looking at the Design and Access Statement it is impressive and professional


https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=PV3L2ZIHHLV00


I would be interested to see what other peoples opinions of this design is on this forum. I have heard of Keppie Design they are quite well known in Scotland


http://www.keppiedesign.co.uk

[Mike Sweeney]

I have not been to Royal Dornoch but it certainly is on "the list". I am definitely in the small low key clubhouse kind of category, but RD would seem to be in "special status" as an iconic club, so it seems reasonable to re-build. My review is based on the three pictures presented in the article:

I am assuming this is the front entrance, and I get that they were going for an old look, but it looks cold and unwelcoming to me. I am not a fan of the awkward sizing of the windows, the logo sort of replacing a window, and the lack of windows on this side (I want to welcome my guest and meet them at the door when you see them walking up.) The entrance doors are small and almost hidden. I am guessing that lockers are on the basement floor, so the lack of windows on that level makes sense, but it still needs some warmth on the entrance side:


From this angle, I love the way the new clubhouse sits and it looks like there will be a 2nd floor porch, similar to Lahinch, where you can watch your friends and fellow golfers play in. Since they are not showing any ocean views, I am assuming that the course routing stays the same. A good thing as too often they re-position the clubhouse to maximize ocean views.


In picture #2 above, the porch looks higher up, but not here in the dining room view. Regardless of height, it reminds me of Streamsong, which grew on me over time. I like the TWA Terminal kind of throwback, and in fact they just opened an updated TWA Hotel in the old TWA Terminal at JFK:

[Ben Stephens]

Mike et al


All the information and design process/historical reference are in the following Design and Access Statements -

https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/files/920B643D73772F21A6BA07109E21A7A8/pdf/19_03365_FUL-DESIGN_AND_ACCESS_STATEMENT_-_part_1-1870891.pdf


https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/files/94265CC388F2758825437AFA9BB2617C/pdf/19_03365_FUL-DESIGN_AND_ACCESS_STATEMENT_-_part_2-


https://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/files/2C5A014CE9FF11661651DA4F9CEE8581/pdf/19_03365_FUL-DESIGN_AND_ACCESS_STATEMENT_-_part_3-1870893.pdf

[Jon Wiggett]

Unless I missed it the membership at RDGC has not agreed to build a new clubhouse. Indeed it was rejected recently when they were asked. Just to be clear getting planning permission is irrelevant in as much as I could put in for planning permission to turn the course at Dornoch into a giant caravan park and I might well get it as well but that does not mean it will happen. You do not have to own the land or building to get planning permission on it here in Scotland.

[Michael Baity]

Now just move the 18th Green 125 yards back to the present practice green and you have the finisher this course deserves.  May need to move the public beach road slightly (good luck getting approval for that), but the 18th at TOC pulls this off well and would add some uniqueness to the second shot.  Would be great finishing by the clubhouse although the long holes (9, 12 and 18) would all be in the similar direction.

[Thomas Dai]

Unless I missed it the membership at RDGC has not agreed to build a new clubhouse. Indeed it was rejected recently when they were asked. Just to be clear getting planning permission is irrelevant in as much as I could put in for planning permission to turn the course at Dornoch into a giant caravan park and I might well get it as well but that does not mean it will happen. You do not have to own the land or building to get planning permission on it here in Scotland.

Good point Jon. At the end of the day the decision is likely to be member based so I trust all those involved read the rules and regulations of the club and understand precisely who can and who can’t vote in such a decision including less obvious details such as whether not only those attending the appropriate meetings can vote or whether absentees can vote too. Complicated subject where things can go awry if not handled properly.
Atb

[Sean_A]

I too thought the membership turned down the new house proposal. So I was surprised to see approval for a (much different) plan. Why would somebody pay to go through the planning process if they weren't confident the proposal would eventually pass? Out of interest, in Scotland, how long does the applicant have to put spade in the ground to meet planning conditions?

Happy Hockey

[Ben Stephens]

I too thought the membership turned down the new house proposal. So I was surprised to see approval for a (much different) plan. Why would somebody pay to go through the planning process if they weren't confident the proposal would eventually pass? Out of interest, in Scotland, how long does the applicant have to put spade in the ground to meet planning conditions?

Happy Hockey

Assuming that Scotland follows England and Wales planning laws if so it is 3 years before planning permission elapses. All they need is to start part of the foundations (or footings) and build it for as long as they like to 'activate' the planning permit.

[Jeff Schley]

I have heard that this clubhouse project was approved by their membership earlier this year and will start in late 2020.




Also a feature I really like about Royal Dornoch is the flags they fly by their sign which changes daily.  I have learned that this is by design and s sign of a very welcoming club indeed:





Every day different flags are flown to represent the countries in which our members/visitors have come from for that particular day.

[Jon Wiggett]

I too thought the membership turned down the new house proposal. So I was surprised to see approval for a (much different) plan. Why would somebody pay to go through the planning process if they weren't confident the proposal would eventually pass? Out of interest, in Scotland, how long does the applicant have to put spade in the ground to meet planning conditions?

Happy Hockey

Assuming that Scotland follows England and Wales planning laws if so it is 3 years before planning permission elapses. All they need is to start part of the foundations (or footings) and build it for as long as they like to 'activate' the planning permit.

Scottish planning laws are often quite different to those in England. Off the top of my head I think it is 5 years but am not too sure this is correct. What is important is getting the foundations in.


Jeff,


I have not heard anything about the membership passing a plan to BUILD a new clubhouse and that sort of thing is usually quite well known locally so I am sceptical about it being the case though it is not impossible.


Jon

[Mike Sweeney]

I have not heard anything about the membership passing a plan to BUILD a new clubhouse and that sort of thing is usually quite well known locally so I am sceptical about it being the case though it is not impossible.

Jon

As a USA fan of "The Crown", I am pretty sure they don't tell you everything:





Amazing show. It makes me want to like Prince Philip, and join Royal Portcrawl (Wales).


I have absolutely no interest in ever seeing Bandon.

[Jon Wiggett]

Well I do stand corrected


RDGC has had planning permission for a new clubhouse which will be situated nearer to the 18th green than at present. This move comes at the same time as the lease of the land goes from £150 a year up to £50,000 indexed linked and reviewed every 5 years.


Jon

[Niall C]

Jon


I'm assuming they have just renewed the ground lease for a lengthy period ? If so, depending on how it's worded, they could come to regret the index linked rent review.


So is the new clubhouse definitely going ahead ? Sorry, if I missed the news but I wasn't aware it had been settled.


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

When I first went to Ballybunion in 1983, the only thing I can remember about the clubhouse was that it was fairly small, and pretty dark inside.


However I distinctly remember the first time I went back to their new modern clubhouse, getting to the front door and having it slide open, like I was entering an American big box store.  The feeling of intimacy was no more.  It doesn't ruin the experience of Ballybunion for me, but it clearly gives the impression that their purpose is to take cash from visitors.  I hope Dornoch has not gone that way.

[David_Tepper]

Here is an article regarding the new ground lease:

 https://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/agreement-reached-in-principle-over-royal-dornoch-golf-club-land-lease-191145/

[Dan Boerger]

Speaking of clubhouses, I just read that Walton Heath was denied permission to build a new one, which would have been built on the course grounds, but across Dorking Road. The funding for this new course would have come from demolishing the existing clubhouse and building 13 new homes. I have played WH a few times, and the putting green in front of the existing clubhouse is wonderful (for both pre and post game activities).