The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey

[Phil Lipper]

I googled new dornoch clubhouse and some of the proposals they have gotten over time are downright scary. Most look like a clubhouse that belongs in Scottsdale not the Highlands. One of the things that makes the Highlands special is that most of it feels "authentic" and not touristy, the proposals seem to go against that.

[Bill_McBride]

I only played Dornoch once and walked it at sunrise a couple of other times.  I enjoyed the town and the people I met.  That brief visit hardly entitles me to an opinion, but I don’t remember thinking that the house and town needed sprucing up or modernized.  In fact, as a visitor from the rural western US, I was charmed by buildings that were constructed to last for generations and have done so.  This respect for history and tradition is reason enough for travel and discovery.  So, my vote would be to change nothing.  I love old things that provided enjoyment for generations.  The Dornoch clubhouse felt more comfortable and appropriate than, say, Narin.  If it doesn’t work for the members and visitors, that’s for the members and staff to determine.   The same goes for the course.

Agreed on Nairn clubhouse, very cold and sterile.

[Bill_McBride]

Ian

What would the club do with a 22 bedroom hotel?  I can't imagine the club would ever have a need for such a large house. 

Ciao

Sean -


I hear you on this one for sure.
As an overseas member of RDGC, I certainly would stay there and perhaps others would as well.


Lots of clubs have places for members to stay, but maybe that's more prevalent in the US. I'm not an expert here at all.


The Royal Golf Hotel just makes sense to me because: the architecture is sound, the positioning of the building is damn near perfect and if you saw the architect's rendering of the transformation to a clubhouse, you may also agree.... !!


PM me if you would like to see them and please provide an email address.


Sure as hell beats the crap out of this eye-sore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6-sPa7omro


Cheers,
Ian

Just watched 20 secs of that video.  OMFG.   

[Stephen Northrup]

I played RDGC three times last month, and had dinner in the clubhouse one evening. I don't see a need to change the clubhouse radically. If the 7th green could be re-created, shifting the hole to the right would be an easy call, especially since it would also strengthen the 8th hole and put more of a premium on the drive -- so re-creation of the green is the question to me. It seems to me that removing the tee on 12 and restoring the bank is the easiest call of all -- yes to that.


Rich, is this document the plan that is under consideration:


https://issuu.com/mackenzieandebert/docs/visionforchampcoursevrdgc2015-07_di

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Rihc,


hope you have enjoyed a windswept round of golf yesterday. To answer your questions:




1.  Should the current clubhouse remain, or should it be replaced?


No, the clubhouse is clearly adequate.
[/size]2.  Should the 7th hole and green be reconstructed to the right of the current fairway and the 8th hole changed to have a new tee on what is now the 7th green?[/color]


Definitely not!!! The seventh green is one of the best on the course and the hole offers a pleasing change of pace. Were they to clear the gorse down the right side of the hole the vistas would be opened up and much more spectacular.
[/size]3.  Should the 11th green be extended onto what is now the daily 12th tee, making the current 12th medal tee now the daily tee?[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Not to bothered one way or the other with the 11th green other than to ask does it really add anything to the hole? As to the 12th tee, why would you want to lengthen the daily length of this hole? Seems a bit silly.[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Jon[/color]

[Sean_A]

BTW...I am shocked there is no mention of clearing out gorse on 2 and 17.  To me, these two issues are the most necessary.  Looking back at my pix, I would also address the fairway bunkering on 5...its a bit of dog's dinner. 


Ciao

[James Brown]

For any of the 1500 souls on this website who have played Royal Dornoch, please answer honestly with your heart and your head and your experience the following questions:


1.  Should the current clubhouse remain, or should it be replaced?
2.  Should the 7th hole and green be reconstructed to the right of the current fairway and the 8th hole changed to have a new tee on what is now the 7th green?
3.  Should the 11th green be extended onto what is now the daily 12th tee, making the current 12th medal tee now the daily tee?


I am sitting in the RDGC clubhouse as I write this.  All responses on here will be read and appreciated.  Anybody who wishes to contribute but not respond on this public website, please e-mail me directly.


I am a 35-year member at RDGC and will be attending the AGM this Friday where these and other issues will be discussed and voted on.  Your thoughts will inform me greatly,


Thanks


Rich

Have played Dornoch 10 times over the last couple of years.  Favorite place on the planet.


1.  I liked one of the proposals to move the clubhouse to a site on the small practice green adjacent to the 8th fairway.  I love old clubhouses, but you will benefit from some updating I am sure.  Doubt you can fit everyone in during the annual meeting and the Shield.


2.  I would echoe the sentiments about the 7th green being a darling and would hate to lose it.  I would think you might be able to do something very nice with a new tee on the 8th, as you will still have the 17th hole for a great over the hill shot.


3.  11 is plenty of hole already.  This seems a bit much.


BTW, got to have Tom Mackenzie's son as my caddie last time around there.  Love the smallness of Dornoch and hope the Coul links plans don't upset this balance. 

[Jon Wiggett]

James,


moving the clubhouse out to the 8th would do more to kill the ambiance at Dornoch than Coul Links ever could and building a clubhouse to fit just two events per year is the sort of financial stupidity that has gotten many a club into serious difficulty. Dornoch is in good shape at the moment but if you strip the US greenfees out of the equation then things look very, very different.


Jon

[Niall C]

It was my understanding that the club had a pot of money to build a new clubhouse and weren't dependent on finance, is that correct ?


Niall

[Niall C]

Reading the papers this morning, and it would appear that the club has other land issues other than where to put a new clubhouse or seventh green. One of or perhaps the last of the local farmers with crofting rights over part of the course is holding out for c.£2m to relinquish those rights and has had them valued at that level. The club have valued those rights at £33K.


The rights allow him to graze his livestock on the course if he wants. Anyone fancy Dornoch playing like Brora ?


Niall

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian

What would the club do with a 22 bedroom hotel?  I can't imagine the club would ever have a need for such a large house. 

Ciao

Sean -






I hear you on this one for sure.
As an overseas member of RDGC, I certainly would stay there and perhaps others would as well.


Lots of clubs have places for members to stay, but maybe that's more prevalent in the US. I'm not an expert here at all.


The Royal Golf Hotel just makes sense to me because: the architecture is sound, the positioning of the building is damn near perfect and if you saw the architect's rendering of the transformation to a clubhouse, you may also agree.... !!


PM me if you would like to see them and please provide an email address.


Sure as hell beats the crap out of this eye-sore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6-sPa7omro


Cheers,
Ian

Ian

I can understand a dormy house, but a hotel? 

I can understand why foreign members would want better facilities, I would too if I was a foreign member. But there is no need to go nuts with a gin palace for a course that is really only very busy well less than half the months of the year.  I don't like the current house, but I would be far more concerned about integrating the house better with the course.  Right now, this is the worst aspect of Dornoch...the walk from 18 to the house and very little relationship between the house, course and sea.  Not a single hole on the course is anywhere near as annoying as this lack of relationship. 

Take a look at Castle Stuart to get an idea of what Dornoch could have, but the 18th has to finish near the house.  Hence I think the last should be a par 5 to the putting green.  I think that single change would be justification for a well designed house along the lines of Castle Stuart.  A house which offers good views (and access to the course) of 1, 18 and the sea. If that isn't on the cards, as a member, I wouldn't want to spend big on house that will deliver a more up to date version of what already exists...just spiff up what you have and curse that the huse is terribly situated. 


I saw the plans for a new house...not impressive and downright lacking in creativity.  The committee needs to get about and get an idea of the possibilities rather than building a barn.


Ciao

Sean -


I do understand your points.
But, a new clubhouse near the 18th green presents myriad logistical problems that do not get enough attention.


As you know currently there is a public access road to the beach that passes next to the clubhouse and crosses directly in front of the first tee and cars do have the right of way.


Imagine if a new building is erected on the links next to the 18th green:


1. All deliveries will then need to use this road
2. All tour vans would now cross this road
3. All members/guests just going for lunch would cross the first tee
4. You would also be blocking any future proposed changes to the first hole of the Struie course




Perhaps the RGH option is not the best as you bring up very valid points to consider.
But, placing an edifice on linksland should be done very cautiously.


Castle Stuart is VERY, very different. It's a modern hybrid links course and the art deco (i think...;-) marine style of the clubhouse works as there are no other buildings in the immediate area except for the castle itself. Dornoch is an older town with an architectural heritage. A modern clubhouse design would not fit the town or the course.


Just my opinion.
Cheers.,
Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

It was my understanding that the club had a pot of money to build a new clubhouse and weren't dependent on finance, is that correct ?


Niall

Niall,


Yes, that is also my understanding.


Cheers,
Ian

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks all for the thoughtful replies.  Please keep them coming!  I don't plan to express my views until I hear more.


As to the You Tube video, that is an old proposal which is not relevant to the current conversation.  As to the Mackenzie/Ebert plan, that too is an old one but which which contains some of the current proposals being considered..


Cheers


Rich

[Thomas Dai]

Rich,


Thanks for starting this thread. Some interesting points have arisen that relate to other clubs as well.


By the way, has consideration or a proposal ever been made to change the (seemingly not appreciated as much as the rest of the wonderful course by some) 16th-hole in any way? Just curious.


Atb

[Jonathan Mallard]

Rich,


I've only played the course once, but I'd be very hesitant to change anything. I think they moved the 3rd fairway recently but retained the character of the bunkers.


I'd also hesitate to re-do the clubhouse, that was part of the ambiance of the experience.


Unless, of course, the structure itself had issues that will necessitate a wholesale remodel. 

[Mike Hendren]

To participate in this site and the seemingly inevitable viral wanderlust it fosters is a true joy.  Few days if any have been greater than my day at Dornoch in May, thanks to Rich and his better 3/4 Josie who hosted my wife and me for lunch and to David Tepper, who squired me around as the second group off then arranged an afternoon game with the delightful James Boon and the legendary Garth McGimpsey who won the British Amateur at Dornoch in 1985.  It didn't hurt that I retired to 2 Quail for an outstanding dinner prepared by Michael Carr.

So in response to Rich's question, how does one improve on "as good as it gets?"   As for the golf course, I'll defer to Tom Doak's 10 rating - res ipsa loquitur.  I suppose if you held a gun to my head and required me to make a single change I'd remove the two hairy mounds right of the 16th green and then I'd let someone else decide whether to replace them with a single bunker.

All that said, I was slightly surprised by the "commercial" vibe of the place and any changes would be to soften that feel. Mid-day it had the feeling of being overrun by the likes of me.  First, I'd take the buses out of the upper parking lot and relegate them to the lower lot for drop off and pick up.  Second, I'd consider expanding the building that houses the caddy corp to include the golf shop if possible.  A stand-alone golf shop works well as such places as Shinnecock, North Berwick West Links and The Honors just to name a few and they serve well to isolate the business end of the enterprise.  I'd then turn the golf shop space into a leather-upholstered members' enclave manned by one beloved staff member with food and beverage provided by dumb-waiter.  I'd also establish an outdoor sitting area off that space landscaped to provide privacy for the members.  Both Sandwich and Chechessee Creek have beautiful areas in the back of their clubhouses.  Members could simply step from the garden to the first tee without wading through the Philistines. 

I see no reason why Dornoch cannot continue to have its cake and eat it to.  I do think there is a risk that the members don't get the big slice with the extra frosting.  Also, a financial surplus can be a dangerous thing.  I can't imagine what Holston Hills would look like today if time and fashion had not overlooked East Knoxville.

Respectfully,

Mike

[James Brown]

James,


moving the clubhouse out to the 8th would do more to kill the ambiance at Dornoch than Coul Links ever could and building a clubhouse to fit just two events per year is the sort of financial stupidity that has gotten many a club into serious difficulty. Dornoch is in good shape at the moment but if you strip the US greenfees out of the equation then things look very, very different.


Jon

Sorry, meant 18th fairway. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Rich,


Thanks for starting this thread. Some interesting points have arisen that relate to other clubs as well.


By the way, has consideration or a proposal ever been made to change the (seemingly not appreciated as much as the rest of the wonderful course by some) 16th-hole in any way? Just curious.


Atb

Thomas-


This is what is being considered for #16:




Recommendations
1. Add a back tee which adds about 15 yards making the carry to the shelf more like the way it played in the 70s and 80s.
2. Keep the right bunker a little more visible from the tee. They both need to have presence.
3. The green has been enlarged significantly over the years but the huge green is a good feature because it makes two-putting such a challenge on what is a high and exposed green.


Description
It is not the stuff of day-dreams, but the 16th is a strong hole to start the closing stretch. In real terms, it plays much shorter than it once did, but that brings the quarry even more into play.
There is scope to steal a few extra yards at the tee which will make the carry onto the ledge that little bit harder more like the way that it once was.
The right bunkers on the drive need to be kept visible from the tee. There is not much point in having them if the faces are lowered taking them out of view. They are an important part of the look of the hole.
Interestingly, this green has become much larger over the years at the front left and back right.

cheers,
ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

2. I really like the proposed changes to #7 as it brings the hole closer to the ridge-line and allows players to see the water. It's an uninteresting hole until you get to the green anyway, IMO. Hitting an approach shot to an "infinity green" is more interesting that the gorse back drop that exists today.

Rich:


Royal Dornoch is one of the rare 10's in The Confidential Guide so as a general rule I am loathe to suggestions to alter the course.


Ian's comment on #7 brings up the point that Royal Dornoch has always had great appeal to Americans because, more like our modern links courses than those on the Open rota, it already offers a lot of water views through the course.  To me, the idea of adding another one is just pandering to Americans, at the expense of a perfectly good hole currently.  Maybe you should ask them if that's what they're after.

Tom -


Not sure I agree with you here.
Don't think a pandering strategy is part of the plan at RDGC....


If YOU were designing this hole for the first time and saw the site, would YOU put the fairway 60m from the cliff and decide to leave all that lovely gorse in place?


For the most part, the par 4s at RD all favor a draw or at least chart a right to left tact.
The new 7th hole moves left to right and brings some variety to the routing. It also strengthens the 8th hole.


I know we have debated this before (RDGC's first hole), but the FW bunkers there today are not really in play and the new 7th brings them back in play. I know your views on things like this and I can understand for sure.....but....


....(channeling "Spinal Tap)....can't RDGC 'go to 11"?....


Cheers,
Ian

[Jason Topp]

It has been quite a few years since my visit but I would be very leery of changes to the golf course.

I like the current hole 7 as a change of pace and recall liking the green.  I did find the tee shot on 8 to be similar to the shot on 17 so I can at least theoretically understand converting that hole.  The walk down the hill seemed like a magical moment to me so I would hate to see that walk altered. 

On 11, if I understand the proposal, the green would wrap around the bunker on the left side.  That might work if the green is perfectly sloped but from the air the change looks like it would be more appropriate in Florida. 

I don't know about the clubhouse but I like the way it looks now.  I would only replace it if the club can do so without debt and can keep an appropriate look to the place.   

[Niall C]

Ian
 
Re fairways bunkers at first – hands up, I’ve been there and bet many others have as well. Not surprising when you have golfers of varying ability, hitting their first shot of the day and in varying playing conditions. Yes, you could make them more intrusive and more of a challenge but it is the first hole and the green is challenge enough IMO.
 
Niall

[Bryan Izatt]

For context, I've played the course and enjoyed the clubhouse around two dozen times over the last decade.




What are the the members trying to accomplish with the proposed changes? Changes to the course really don't seem necessary.  Hopefully they're not trying to make the course more challenging for competitions.


1.  Should the current clubhouse remain, or should it be replaced?


Is this either/or?  I'd vote for renovation if I were a member.  The location is OK with me - the view out the dining room window, down the 1st fairway is great.  If they've got the money and I were a member, the locker room could use a reno.




2.  Should the 7th hole and green be reconstructed to the right of the current fairway and the 8th hole changed to have a new tee on what is now the 7th green?


I like hole as is and especially the green.  If they want to open up the view, couldn't you just cut down the right side gorse?  Wouldn't getting too close to the ridge present some possible erosion problems.  Would the hole be significantly better with green near the edge.  The situation reminds me of the 9th at Cruden Bay where they moved the tee and green nearer the ridge.  Didn't seem to me to make a significant impact on the hole.  Moving the 10th tee right made the hole look different and perhaps a little more difficult, but why bother.


I'm not fond of the idea of moving the 8th tee to the location of the current 7th green.  It brings the ridge closer to the tee reducing the carry needed on the drive.  Wouldn't the closest part of the lower fairway also have to be moved right a bit?  Wouldn't the tee bring more of the 9th fairway into play for the right handed slicers?  And the oob ence along the left of the current fairway would no longer be a consideration on the tee shot.




3.  Should the 11th green be extended onto what is now the daily 12th tee, making the current 12th medal tee now the daily tee?


Why bother.  The hole is long enough now and it's tough to hit the green with the second shot already.  A back left pin might be more interesting, but if you can't get there anyway, it seems like it would just be frustrating for daily play.


The 12th tee I like where it is.  It doesn't take too much of a draw to fit the fairway.  And, it's one of the few par 5's where I could sometimes reach it in two.  Moveing the tee back and toward the sea would just make it a boring 3 shot par 5.  The knob front left of the green is certainly entertaining and effective for those trying for the green in two.  Its efficacy would be lost if the hole were made longer for every day play.




All in all, leave well enough alone unless there is some compelling reason that's not obvious so far.

[Niall C]

Question - If you can't reach the 12th in 2, which is probably now me in most playing conditions, then what has the hole got to commend it ?


Niall

[Philip Gawith]

Rich, my thoughts:


1/ I have been in that clubhouse on over 50 separate days and it has never felt lacking. I think it is consistent with the character of the course and the town - pretty low key. It has never felt crowded or wanting in any important way (at least in May when I go) and hard to believe that anyone leaves town thinking "great course, shame about the clubhouse". Yes it is modest by the standards of the course, but it does not detract from the dignity of the course. So I don't really see the case for change.


2/ I like the 7th green and the challenge it presents and would be sorry to see it go. That said, the hole itself is not especially memorable and I would not be too dogmatic against the idea of routing it a bit further right and bringing the view into play.


3/ The 8th is a great hole as it stands and I am not sure it would benefit from shifting the tee. Not sure why you would want do to this and sceptical that it would be an improvement.


4/ Hard to see what the case is for growing the 11th green to the left. It is already enormous. As for the related idea to push the tee back to the medal tee, that seems a bad idea. As it is, the approach and green complex present plenty of challenge. I always feel like I should get there with two good hits and want to have a go, but I am very, very seldom on in two. It plays harder than it looks and has plenty of challenge. Pushing the tee back would make it and out and out three shorter, pushing it out of range for most people (regressive) and would make it more of a slog, which it is not at present (regressive).


Philip

[Tom_Doak]

If YOU were designing this hole for the first time and saw the site, would YOU put the fairway 60m from the cliff and decide to leave all that lovely gorse in place?

For the most part, the par 4s at RD all favor a draw or at least chart a right to left tact.
The new 7th hole moves left to right and brings some variety to the routing. It also strengthens the 8th hole.

...

Cheers,
Ian

Ian:


I believe there is a difference between thinking about how I would design a hole if I saw a site, and thinking about whether to alter one of the ten best courses in the world.  I believe all architects should have respect for the best work that has come before them, and hesitate in thinking they are so smart they can always improve upon what's there.


Practically speaking, making such alterations is more likely to make a course fall out of the top ten than to move up.  Once you're up there, there is nowhere to go but down.


And yes, I think the sales pitch [it is a sales pitch] that #7 will be more beautiful is an appeal to the American golfer more than the locals.  For that matter, so is scaling up the clubhouse.  The members have all seemed quite comfortable there since I first saw it in 1982.