The Future of Royal Dornoch--a Golf Club Atlas Survey

[Rich Goodale]

For any of the 1500 souls on this website who have played Royal Dornoch, please answer honestly with your heart and your head and your experience the following questions:


1.  Should the current clubhouse remain, or should it be replaced?
2.  Should the 7th hole and green be reconstructed to the right of the current fairway and the 8th hole changed to have a new tee on what is now the 7th green?
3.  Should the 11th green be extended onto what is now the daily 12th tee, making the current 12th medal tee now the daily tee?


I am sitting in the RDGC clubhouse as I write this.  All responses on here will be read and appreciated.  Anybody who wishes to contribute but not respond on this public website, please e-mail me directly.


I am a 35-year member at RDGC and will be attending the AGM this Friday where these and other issues will be discussed and voted on.  Your thoughts will inform me greatly,


Thanks


Rich

[Niall C]

Rich


I'm not a member as you know but first got to Dornoch on a family holiday nearly 50 years ago and one of my earliest memories in golf is playing on the Struie with my mother and brother. I've been back infrequently many times since as a guest of fellow gca'ers like you and DT, as well as several visits under my own steam. I have a real affection for the place and by that I mean the town as well as the club.


That said, comments as follows;


1 - Clubhouse - clearly it needs to be fit for purpose. The demands on and expectations of the clubhouse are different now than when I was a boy. What was acceptable then probably wouldn't work now, hence the periodic additions and alterations that have occurred over the years. In many respects much like the course. However unlike the course I'd suggest that time has come for a radical rethink of the clubhouse/pro shop facilities. As I see it you have two options, namely; new clubhouse or renovation/refurb/reworking of existing facilities.


In the first option you could move the clubhouse to a more "advantageous position", in the second option which I personally favour you could strip the existing building back to it's original facade and proportions, and then build behind that facade providing the f & b options with a new pro shop/visitor changing rooms building adjacent to first tee. You might have to look at how you arrange the putting green/1st tee to fit in. Doing it that way would allow you to build the pro shop/changing rooms first so that they were available while work went on in the main building. Other advantages would include doing away with the need for a starter if you wanted.


However the main advantage would be you would get back the original facade which really was quite bonny. When you think of a lot of the classic courses they invariably have a classic looking clubhouse. And if we can restore courses.....


2 - I feel your hurt at possibly losing the 7th green which I think is one of the nicest contoured greens on the course along with the 1st but infinity greens are all the vogue right now, and I suppose they might be able to fashion a more interesting drive for the 8th (not sure how mind you).


3 - I've no problem them remodeling the 11th green or at least the front of the green with its cross bunker but I question why you'd lengthen the 12th which is already a bit of a slog as is much of the back nine. Maybe the medal tee offers better and more interesting angles, I don't know but on the face of it, it's a strange one.


Rich - can I ask you, where have the course proposals come from, Tom MacKenzie ?


Niall

[Gary Slatter]

Wow Rich, at least the right man is at the table, you.   Not many are entitled to make any changes to the course, certainly the best course in Scotland at present.  The 7th is a good hole, a bit different from the rest of the holes, but it gets you to the next series of 11 great holes.  Clubhouses are clubhouses, economics sometimes require changes.  Many good courses have been ruined by bad clubhouse management, surely Dornoch members know what they need now and in ten years. Changes should only be made for the users, not for the potential clientele, they might be different from the expected.
My advice, let Mother Nature make the course changes, Comfort the clubhouse changes.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I have only played it three times.

Honestly I would not change a damn thing. I love the course, yes the clubhouse is old and quaint, a lot like some of the members we met.


Yes 7 is a bit different but very playable. If changes are a result of storms or the such sure, you have to protect the course. Otherwise leave it alone.

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I've only played RD twice so I have no opinions that matter - other than don't screw it up.

I hope all is well.

Bob

[Sean_A]

Rich

1. I can only see spending serious money on the house if A and B can be met.  C is an idea which may be a step too far.  Otherwise, do cheap fixes until someone comes along with bright ideas.

A. The club is awash in money, there will be plenty of money left over and no debt will be taken on. 

B. If the house can be more incorporated into the course. A few ideas are extending the 18th to the practice green to make a par 5 or move the house onto practice green and area to 18th green. 

C. Consideration for attached rooms...probably four twin rooms.

D. A tasteful building which isn't a huge, empty gin palace.

2. Do not alter #7 green...just creates a longer walk to 8 tee.  Any issue with the hole has nothing to do with the green.  Do not change 
the 8th.  Lengthening the hole would reduce its quality.

3. Do not alter the 11th green...it is one of the best on the course.  The 12th is a wonderful length par 5 for most people. 

Ciao

[Charlie_Bell]

I have visited Dornoch but once and played the course twice, so my opinions should be weighed accordingly.  My votes:

1) Redo
2) Leave
3) Redo

1) Clubhouse -- I would certainly defer to the opinions of the locals, however, there was nothing about it that I regard as memorable except for the display of the Carnegie Shield.  The Shield itself deserves a more worthy presentation, though the result needn't be Trumpian.  Despite the disruption that a full, start-from-scratch rebuild would cause, I suspect that a new design could serve players and staff much better than the current one, and it would offer the club the opportunity to build something truly distinctive.  Extending the William Morris quotation to the structure itself ("Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful.") I don't think it would be sacrilege to replace or massively renovate the current house.  Build something eminently useful or inarguably beautiful, or both.  One of the loveliest, most magical courses in the world deserves it.

2) 7th and 8th Holes -- I studied the course for years before I got to play it, thanks primarily to this site and your book, which I gladly purchased months before my visit. The 8th was the hole I anticipated more than any other, and I was not disappointed.  I like the 8th just as it is, and to the argument that it is echoed in the 17th, well, I would say that the very resonance between the two is part of the charm of the course.  The fact that the 17th introduces an option that the 8th lacks (the short-drive-dowhill-approach) enhances the appeal of the 8th as is.  Moreover, the difference between the two holes in terms of background visuals and overall routing -- towards the Firth vs. uphill and inland -- makes them distinctly different.  To me, the experience was like being given a mulligan, or perhaps enjoying  a slice of blueberry pie and then, awhile later, a piece of pecan pie.  Readers of a certain age may recall the Lovin' Spoonful song Did You Ever Have to Make Up Your Mind? about the conundrum of choosing between two sisters.  Well, in the 8th and the 17th at Royal Dornoch, lucky are we who get to enjoy the differing charms of both. 

Furthermore, though I understand the frequent criticism of the 7th hole, to this player of modest ability the 7th was a welcome relief after the intimidating 6th.  The green contours are lovely, and they are severe enough that I doubt birdies come easily even to better players.  In any event, a birdie there must be earned.  Perhaps bunkering could be added or modified to increase the quirk or the challenge, but as a 9-10 handicapper I'm happy with the 7th as it is.

3) 11th & 12th -- To be honest, the 11th green/12th tee is the least memorable patch of land in the entire course.  I took many photographs in my brief visit, and even so, that particular area is like a black hole in my memory.  My instinctive response is:  If locals are considering change there, by all means make it.  Having just taken a look at my few photos of the 11th green and 12th tee, I would certainly vote to make some changes.  A few tweaks could spice things up...


 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Rich -


1. I believe that the current clubhouse should be razed and that RDGC should purchase the Royal Golf Hotel and convert that to the new clubhouse for the following reasons:


a. It re-routes all traffic to the club to Grange Rd. Tour vans, deliveries, car park, drop-offs, etc. It's just smart.
b. The RGH is a beautiful building and, if the club does not buy it, it could be well bought by some unsavory ass-hat ( ) who could then do something really silly with it. Plus, the two acre parcel of land next to it would be perfect for parking and a drive-way instead of some low-rent time shares that have been proposed in the past.
c. The architectural renderings I have seen for the new proposed clubhouse are simply appalling and the study, commissioned by E&Y, was lacking in detail and transparency.
d. Building a new clubhouse near the 18th green would be silly, IMO, as it would mandate that all traffic proceed by the first tee. Plus, there is no assurance that the land would be approved as it belongs to the town and not the club.
e. RDGC needs a clubhouse, locker room and dining facility that is commenserate with the stature of the course. Since this cash surplus is generated significantly by visitor rounds, then the club should invest on behalf of their customer base and provide an experince that is more memorable. Besides, what else should the club do with all the $$?
f. RDGC also does not want to be shamed by Coul Links....   I would bet that, given the bespoke architecture of Links House, Coul's facilities will be charming, under-stated and stunning!!!


2. I really like the proposed changes to #7 as it brings the hole closer to the ridge-line and allows players to see the water. It's an uninteresting hole until you get to the green anyway, IMO. Hitting an approach shot to an "infinity green" is more interesting that the gorse back drop that exists today.


3. Can go either way on the 11/12 proposal.


Good luck at the AGM!!


Cheers,
Ian

[Niall C]

d. Building a new clubhouse near the 18th green would be silly, IMO, as it would mandate that all traffic proceed by the first tee. Plus, there is no assurance that the land would be approved as it belongs to the town and not the club.
e. RDGC needs a clubhouse, locker room and dining facility that is commenserate with the stature of the course. Since this cash surplus is generated significantly by visitor rounds, then the club should invest on behalf of their customer base and provide an experince that is more memorable. Besides, what else should the club do with all the $$?
f. RDGC also does not want to be shamed by Coul Links....   I would bet that, given the bespoke architecture of Links House, Coul's facilities will be charming, under-stated and stunning!!!

Ian


I appreciate that you were partially joking in some of your remarks but I couldn't help thinking that a lot of courses/clubhouses have been f*cked up just because the club had the means to do so. There's sometimes nothing wrong with a bit of poverty leading to some benign neglect !


More seriously though, do you not think the customer base is the members rather than visitors ? RDGC is judged by higher standards than your average club, and rightly so. For me one of the issues is that the club has become slightly more like a pay and play/country club facility rather than a place for members. I think that's unfortunate for members but also I think for visitors as well, as often it's the clubby vibe that adds greatly to the experience. Just a thought.


Niall

[Phil Lipper]

I can see doing some renovations inside the clubhouse to freshen it up and help the flow, but that's about it. I can't imagine a total redo ending up looking like it truly belonged. In the perfect world the clubhouse would look more like the clubhouse at Moray which will would fit into the overall architecture of Dornoch. But no one would build something like that today, due to cost.
 As far as the golf course goes I can't imagine why any of those renovations would be needed. Too many great classic golf courses have decided to "improve" the course and it is hardly ever an improvement.  Its not like either of the holes in question are bad holes or have only one or two pin placements or have any real reason to be renovated other than member's of clubs seem to always think a golf course needs to be tweaked.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I wouldn't change any of the greens you mention personally. I could understand 7 being rerouted with the drive towards the edge of the plateau and then dog legging slightly left to the current green site.

I remember really liking the 11th green surrounds so don't want that changed.

Clubhouse maybe. Not qualified enough to really comment.

I've only played two rounds there so answers should be taken with a pinch of salt.

[BCrosby]

Keep in mind the Mike Young axiom that clubs tend to over-spend on their clubhouses and under-spend on their golf courses.

Bob

 

[Andy Shulman]

I've only played RD once (in '13) and absolutely loved it.  Hole #8 was a fantastic hole, so I'd be strongly inclined to leave it as is.  As for the clubhouse, we had lunch there and it seemed fine.  I agree with Phil's suggestion to at least keep the exterior and limit any changes to the insides in order to maintain the very Scottish look and feel of the place.  No opinion on #11, as it's one of the few holes I can't recall.  Of course, if I can't recall it, then maybe some sort of change is in order.

[Thomas Dai]

Clubhouse - if there is loads and loads of cash available, genuine cash that is, not a loan of any kind as loans are bad news, then a freshen-up may well be in order.


However, whilst visitors may make a significant financial contribution, visitors are the iceing on the cake, not the cake itself, and clubs should base their clubhouse and in many ways more importantly, the long term resources/expenditure required to run it, on the cake, not on the iceing. One day the iceing may not be available and then the club is in the ....


The club where I play most often replaced, via a bank loan, their original homely but tacky clubhouse with a new design that whilst functional has all the atmosphere of a motorway service station and relies on visitors and outside functions to keep the bar and catering busy. Small and quaint is often preferable to over-size and without soul.


7th/8th holes - maybe angle/dogleg slightly the 7th fairway a little to the right, nearer the edge of the escarpment. No need to touch the 8th.


11th/12th holes - they are fine. No need to change them.


Good luck


Atb

[Bill_McBride]

In my several days there in 2008 I saw nothing that needed to be changed, other than perhaps sprucing up the clubhouse a bit.  Wonderful place.

[Steve Salmen]

Rich,

I am a firm believer that the clubhouse will never be a deciding factor whether or not a member or visitor gets on an airplane and crosses an ocean to play a golf course.  I don't think it's a factor either, whether it comes to ladies' participation.  It's not the best clubhouse but far from the worst.  Unfortunately, it's on kind of a crummy piece of land and options are quite limited.

I also think it's very easy to spend other people's money.

As for the changes,  all of them probably make the course better, but at what cost?  I have trust in the architects.  I saw the new holes at Portrush the other day and they are spectacular.

Steve

PS I'm sorry I missed you.  Kevin said you were dining at Links House.  I went looking for you unsuccessfully.  Hope you're having a great time.

[Sean_A]

Ian

What would the club do with a 22 bedroom hotel?  I can't imagine the club would ever have a need for such a large house. 

Ciao

[JJShanley]

http://www.rias.org.uk/directory/practices/jam-studio/royal-dornoch-clubhouse/


I hope the architect entered this into a contest, rather than that RDGC chose it.

[Sam Andrews]

For any of the 1500 souls on this website who have played Royal Dornoch, please answer honestly with your heart and your head and your experience the following questions:


1.  Should the current clubhouse remain, or should it be replaced?
2.  Should the 7th hole and green be reconstructed to the right of the current fairway and the 8th hole changed to have a new tee on what is now the 7th green?
3.  Should the 11th green be extended onto what is now the daily 12th tee, making the current 12th medal tee now the daily tee?


I am sitting in the RDGC clubhouse as I write this.  All responses on here will be read and appreciated.  Anybody who wishes to contribute but not respond on this public website, please e-mail me directly.

I am a 35-year member at RDGC and will be attending the AGM this Friday where these and other issues will be discussed and voted on.  Your thoughts will inform me greatly,


Thanks


Rich

Rich,



I went up to Dornoch in May for the first time and was captivated by the welcome and the course. So...
1. Why? Will it make the members/the visitors happier with the golf course? Do people go to Royal Dornoch to sit inside or to play golf? Will the club make a return on its investment? I know some of the members think the club house is an embarrassment but as an occasional visitor I though it's fine, give it a lick of paint on a regular basis and treat it as somewhere to change your shoes and have a pint and some food. The showers could do with some pressure! If you must spend money pay your staff more, they are great.
2. 7th is a very fine hole, what will the change do to improve it or the 8th
3. Ditto point 2.


We all dream about changing something at our clubs, and dreaming is a fine thing to do but mostly leaving well alone is an even better thing.


Sam

[Peter Pallotta]

Rich - on the very off-chance that an outsider's perspective might be of some use, I humbly offer this:

Ask those who are advocating for change *why* they think they need it? Not why the course/clubhouse might need changes, but why *they* need it.

Will change(s) make them happier? Will it make them healthier, or richer? Will it make them feel prouder about being members, or perhaps more virtuous for being good stewards of a beloved club that future generations can enjoy? Will changes help assure them that they are finally being heard, and that their opinions matter and are respected?

There is always a *need* being expressed by advocates of change, but sometimes we/they don't really know what that need is until we're/they're asked about it directly, and have to answer out loud. And sometimes when we don't identify that *deeper* need we end up fixating on *surface* needs that later prove to have been nothing more than passing whims.

I think it is only when these deeper needs are brought to the surface and vocalized that a genuine, meaningful, productive and satisfying discussion can take place for all involved.

Until then, the talk tends to be just that, talk -- various egos exchanging and one-upping each other with random "facts" and arguments, with the loudest and most powerful ego winning out (or *appearing* to, since I tend to believe that *no one* really wins - or gets what they really need -- in those situations. 

Peter

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian

What would the club do with a 22 bedroom hotel?  I can't imagine the club would ever have a need for such a large house. 

Ciao

Sean -


I hear you on this one for sure.
As an overseas member of RDGC, I certainly would stay there and perhaps others would as well.


Lots of clubs have places for members to stay, but maybe that's more prevalent in the US. I'm not an expert here at all.


The Royal Golf Hotel just makes sense to me because: the architecture is sound, the positioning of the building is damn near perfect and if you saw the architect's rendering of the transformation to a clubhouse, you may also agree.... !!


PM me if you would like to see them and please provide an email address.


Sure as hell beats the crap out of this eye-sore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6-sPa7omro


Cheers,
Ian

[Andrew Simpson]

Dornoch is, what Dornoch is.
That's part of it's "charm" and where it gains a following from those in the South and from overseas, as witnessed here. That's the market it panders to and no doubt these changes are being pushed by the relatively new "locals" who are trying to make it a more "civilised" facility.
So as a local to the North I'd happily see the new building if it brought a new attitude but that's not going to happen.

[Sean_A]

Ian

What would the club do with a 22 bedroom hotel?  I can't imagine the club would ever have a need for such a large house. 

Ciao

Sean -


I hear you on this one for sure.
As an overseas member of RDGC, I certainly would stay there and perhaps others would as well.


Lots of clubs have places for members to stay, but maybe that's more prevalent in the US. I'm not an expert here at all.


The Royal Golf Hotel just makes sense to me because: the architecture is sound, the positioning of the building is damn near perfect and if you saw the architect's rendering of the transformation to a clubhouse, you may also agree.... !!


PM me if you would like to see them and please provide an email address.


Sure as hell beats the crap out of this eye-sore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6-sPa7omro


Cheers,
Ian

Ian

I can understand a dormy house, but a hotel? 

I can understand why foreign members would want better facilities, I would too if I was a foreign member. But there is no need to go nuts with a gin palace for a course that is really only very busy well less than half the months of the year.  I don't like the current house, but I would be far more concerned about integrating the house better with the course.  Right now, this is the worst aspect of Dornoch...the walk from 18 to the house and very little relationship between the house, course and sea.  Not a single hole on the course is anywhere near as annoying as this lack of relationship. 

Take a look at Castle Stuart to get an idea of what Dornoch could have, but the 18th has to finish near the house.  Hence I think the last should be a par 5 to the putting green.  I think that single change would be justification for a well designed house along the lines of Castle Stuart.  A house which offers good views (and access to the course) of 1, 18 and the sea. If that isn't on the cards, as a member, I wouldn't want to spend big on house that will deliver a more up to date version of what already exists...just spiff up what you have and curse that the huse is terribly situated. 


I saw the plans for a new house...not impressive and downright lacking in creativity.  The committee needs to get about and get an idea of the possibilities rather than building a barn.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

2. I really like the proposed changes to #7 as it brings the hole closer to the ridge-line and allows players to see the water. It's an uninteresting hole until you get to the green anyway, IMO. Hitting an approach shot to an "infinity green" is more interesting that the gorse back drop that exists today.

Rich:


Royal Dornoch is one of the rare 10's in The Confidential Guide so as a general rule I am loathe to suggestions to alter the course.


Ian's comment on #7 brings up the point that Royal Dornoch has always had great appeal to Americans because, more like our modern links courses than those on the Open rota, it already offers a lot of water views through the course.  To me, the idea of adding another one is just pandering to Americans, at the expense of a perfectly good hole currently.  Maybe you should ask them if that's what they're after.

[Dave McCollum]

I only played Dornoch once and walked it at sunrise a couple of other times.  I enjoyed the town and the people I met.  That brief visit hardly entitles me to an opinion, but I don’t remember thinking that the house and town needed sprucing up or modernized.  In fact, as a visitor from the rural western US, I was charmed by buildings that were constructed to last for generations and have done so.  This respect for history and tradition is reason enough for travel and discovery.  So, my vote would be to change nothing.  I love old things that provided enjoyment for generations.  The Dornoch clubhouse felt more comfortable and appropriate than, say, Narin.  If it doesn’t work for the members and visitors, that’s for the members and staff to determine.   The same goes for the course.