Shinnecock wants to reroute Tuckahoe Road

[Howard Riefs]

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/shinnecock-hills-proposal-to-reroute-road-prior-to-2018-us-open-unpopular

[Ronald Montesano]

Why is this so hard? Just shut it down for that week. Cannot imagine that it has that much traffic during the year.


OK, just finished the article and saw that it is shut down for the week. That's a great road and it should remain open to the public. Quite an interesting dilemma.

[John McCarthy]

Maybe a tunnel?  I can't imagine that it would require blasting through basalt. 

[Jon Cavalier]

OK, just finished the article and saw that it is shut down for the week. That's a great road and it should remain open to the public. Quite an interesting dilemma.

That would be a tragedy to close that road. So many of the great classic courses have a road running through them, and this is one of the best.

[Ronald Montesano]

Maybe a tunnel?  I can't imagine that it would require blasting through basalt.

CCBuffalo built two tunnels at 1 million each 20 years ago. Quarry land, so limestone to blast through. Would the tunnels be stable enough, since that land is pretty sandy?

[Ronald Montesano]

That would be a tragedy to close that road. So many of the great classic courses have a road running through them, and this is one of the best.

The fact that Any Joe can drive adjacent to NGLA, Southampton, Shinnecock (but not Sebonack!) and see those courses is awesome, in my book. Still love Jeff Warne's place, though, for the views and the awesome history of the property. It would be like turning Watkins Glen into a golf course while preserving the racing lore of the joint.

[jeffwarne]

Why is this so hard? Just shut it down for that week. Cannot imagine that it has that much traffic during the year.


OK, just finished the article and saw that it is shut down for the week. That's a great road and it should remain open to the public. Quite an interesting dilemma.

Ron,
Every day it is  back road exit for the multiple miles long trade parade.One of several that dump into route 27.
It sees a TON of traffic every week-every day.


Wonder how Southampton feels about the sixth green being hugged by a traffic snarled hugely busy entry and exit to The Hamptons, to say nothing of the homeowners along St Andrews road.
Sensible plan for Shinnecock members-one of my favorite routes.
Not a great plan for residents.
A maintenance tunnel and a tunnel to 10 would seem cheaper.
I do wonder how many cars get hit on 12 as the traffic really backs up across that fairway in the afternoon and players have to hit over cars (no berm like the crossing holes at NGLA)

[David Davis]

Interesting. Does the club own the land? Is this an imminent domain type of situation?


Obviously not living there I'm a bit doubt on this. I've had more than one "oh sh**" moments trying to cross that road. Both leaving the parking lot when cars came up fast over the hill and walking over to 10 so totally understand the safety concern. The proposed road looks to run along the border with NGLA right? Bet that would go over well with their neighbors as well.


As long as they don't reroute the course ;-)

[Tom_Doak]

Heard about this when I was out at Sebonack in July. 

I used to drive through Shinnecock and then across National every morning on the way to work when we were building Sebonack.  It was a good reminder of the standard we were being held to.  I will miss the road if they close it, but traffic in the Hamptons is crazy and I'm sure this short cut is annoying the members.

Other top 10 courses where you hit across a public road:  national, Cypress Pt, Pebble Beach, St Andrews.  Plus the driveway at Pine Valley!

[Jon Cavalier]

Other top 10 courses where you hit across a public road:  national, Cypress Pt, Pebble Beach, St Andrews.  Plus the driveway at Pine Valley!

Also, Fishers Island (albeit not top 10, and not exactly public in the typical sense). Plus you cross roads at Oakmont (with bridges, so not really the same) and Merion (Ardmore Ave, which is far more dangerous to the golfers than at Shinny - that road is highly trafficked at 50mph plus).

[jeffwarne]

Interesting. Does the club own the land? Is this an imminent domain type of situation?


Obviously not living there I'm a bit doubt on this. I've had more than one "oh sh**" moments trying to cross that road. Both leaving the parking lot when cars came up fast over the hill and walking over to 10 so totally understand the safety concern. The proposed road looks to run along the border with NGLA right? Bet that would go over well with their neighbors as well.


As long as they don't reroute the course ;-)

David,
The proposed road would parallel 12 at Shinnecock and 6 at Southampton GC
had lunch with Shinnecock Head Pro today-safety is his biggest concern as cars fly through the course when the roads aren't packed with trade parade shortcut traffic

[Jonathan Mallard]

Maybe a tunnel?  I can't imagine that it would require blasting through basalt.

Tunnels have now come under the purview of the FHWA with an extensive set of regulations for periodic inspection and maintenance plans for all systems, structural, mechanical, electrical, fire suppression, etc.


http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/inspection/tunnel/


The FHWA will hold the folks in Albany accountable for meeting the metrics for the tunnel inspection program and will withhold money, or rather target it's spending, from their annual appropriation if they are not in compliance with the standards. They do a field audit of bridges every year, so I expect tunnels will be treated similarly.


Many more long term hoops will have to be jumped through if this is to become a reality.

[John McCarthy]

Maybe a tunnel?  I can't imagine that it would require blasting through basalt.

Tunnels have now come under the purview of the FHWA with an extensive set of regulations for periodic inspection and maintenance plans for all systems, structural, mechanical, electrical, fire suppression, etc.


http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/inspection/tunnel/


The FHWA will hold the folks in Albany accountable for meeting the metrics for the tunnel inspection program and will withhold money, or rather target it's spending, from their annual appropriation if they are not in compliance with the standards. They do a field audit of bridges every year, so I expect tunnels will be treated similarly.


Many more long term hoops will have to be jumped through if this is to become a reality.

The Romans built aqueducts of dozens of miles through mountains and over vast valleys. 

This is not a state road.  Ban trucks.  Build a steel box with 2 foot I beams every two feet.  Let I beams overhang by twelve feet.  Close road.  Get a D 8.  Close road for a few days in winter.  Plow a tunnel to angle of repose.  Put box in.  Use D 8 , then front end loader to enclose box.  Inject concrete under ends of I beams.  Repave road.

My degree is not in civil engineering.  But this is building a tunnel, in sand.  A twenty foot tunnel.  This is the opposite of hard. 

[Jonathan Mallard]

John,


Tuckahoe Road is a public road as defined in 23 CFR 650 Subpart C.


My statement stands.

[Ronald Montesano]

Going back to my CCB vs. Shinny, CCB's tunnels are stabilized (I suspect) because of the type of rock/soil they had to blast through to build them. Would the sandy soil of Shinny allow for a stable tunnel/series of tunnels?


Jeff, I love the term "trade parade." First heard it when I was out there for the Women's Open at Sebonack (must have missed it at Shinny-US Open in 2004-Oh, I know why-we stayed at the defunct college dorms out there, so we never encountered it.) Get on the wrong side of it and you are hosed.


I like the idea of the "muertos" as they call them in Costa Rica...the speed bumps. If they are healthy enough, they will slow down the traffic.


Someone forgot to mention the public road that divides Paramount CC, another world-class design.

[Ronald Montesano]

Interesting. Does the club own the land? Is this an imminent domain type of situation?

I believe the term is "eminent," although as a play on words, "imminent" seems much more appropriate.

[Rees Milikin]

Does anyone have pictures of courses where you hit shots across a road?

[Jon Cavalier]

Rees:
What courses do you want to see? Here's the shots over Shrubland Road on 8 (tee shot) and 11 (approach) at National:




John and Jonathan:
I think the FWHA standards apply to public road tunnels (i.e. vehicles) while John is talking about a pedestrian tunnel that passes under the road. I'm sure the club would need state permission to dig under the road and use public land, but I don't think the FWHA standards would apply to a tunnel that carried only pedestrian (and not public vehicular) traffic.
- Jon