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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2016, 09:59:15 AM »
we don't want another Muirfield with waving knee high rough...lets keep that nonsense for championship courses.
Ah, that old canard again.  I have played both recently and the rough is thick in places at both.  I lost more balls at NBWL than I did at Muirfield.


Canard?  So you posit that Muirfield doesn't have brutal rough?


I agree...NB is getting stupidly narrow....hence the reason I raised the issue. 


14 is agood hole, but for me its not a standout on the course or as a blind hole. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2016, 10:09:46 AM »
I was at Muirfield on Saturday.  The rough is, like just about everywhere I have played in the past few weeks, tough.  But worse than everywhere else?  Not at all.  In fact, I was surprised to find and be able to move a couple of balls I thought were goners.  As I said, last time I played NBWL I lost more balls in rough.  Generally the rough at NBWL is not as deep as the worst stuff at Muirfield but I played Northumberland this morning and the rough there is worse than Muirfield.  As was the rough at Close House last week.  I'll bet the rough at most East Coast links courses is pretty brutal at the moment.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2016, 10:22:17 AM »
Mark


I agree, rough is harsh at most places this year and seemingly getting worse year on.  However, that is very different from Muirfield's (policy?) of brutal rough regardless, year after year.  We can go round and round on this subject and you are never going to convince me that the rough at Muirfield is good, acceptable or fun. Merely stating other places have crappy rough only means they too have crappy rough...thats no excuse. The type of rough Muirfield promotes is awful for golf and all about promoting the idea of a championship venue. It takes all types I guess.  The real shame is there is a better course at Muirfield for less rough because the bunker scheme would shine brighter and when there are that bunkers on a course it makes 100% sense for them to be fully utilized.   


Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2016, 10:32:47 AM »
Once a place gets a reputation, be it good or bad, it's hard to shift. I doubt Muirfield is any different to any other course roundabouts but people will always judge it on how it is set up for the Open.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2016, 10:40:37 AM »
Niall


Like Mark, you miss the point.  Because other places have stupid rough doesn't lessen the stupid rough at Muirfield.  There is no reason the rep should change until the rough changes. All that is happening is that other places will slowly get a rep for harsh rough. 


I will also say the rough wasn't terrible at Eden or Lundin when we were there in June, yet it was awful at Elie...so blanket statements are  certainly not accurate.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2016, 10:51:24 AM »
Sean,


Have you ever played Muirfield in March?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2016, 10:59:50 AM »
Sean,


Have you ever played Muirfield in March?


Nope.  In good weather I am sure I would enjoy Muirfield and just about any links more in March than in June simply because the rough hasn't kicked up yet.  That shoud be a clue that I think 99% of links are too narrow.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2016, 11:01:35 AM »
No reason at all why NBWL can't be the greatest course in the world for some people. I have only ever had the pleasure of playing there once, in driving snow in early April 2013, and to be frank that wasn't the best context for a proper appreciation. But what I did see I  really enjoyed. But isn't Bernard Darwin's celebrated formulation re Aberdovey as 'the course my soul loves best in all the world' perhaps a better and more appropriate evaluation, in this context, given our general GCA aversion to defining anything as categorically 'the best' (regardless of season, weather, condition, company, our own form etc etc).

Maybe an alternative rhetorical question is where, today, would I most like to play golf anywhere in the world? For me, personally, the answer more than often not remains Harlech, which is I fully appreciate a minority view, but over the years I have enjoyed myself more there than anywhere else, and expect so do to going forward. But any course, like both NWBL and Harlech, that provides both a great test of golf and is also a great place for a game of golf with friends, is doing something fundamentally pretty right.

To strike a more heretical note, for me personally the second best course in the Lothians is Luffness New, which I would have expected to receive a bit more GCA love than seems its ration. As of 4pm this bright and  blustery Wednesday afternoon, a magic carpet that could transport me to the first tee at Luffness, ready to play and reinforced by the largest measure of club claret in Christendom, would be immensely welcome.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2016, 11:30:45 AM »
North Berwick also has the finest hazard in all of golf. Any guesses?

The Firth of Forth when the tide is out.  A shot from the beach onto the second green is one of my favorite memories in golf.


I thought the car park along the right side of the drivable 18th was genius, even if it was built before cars were invented. I don't recall a casual round of golf where everyone in the group was so nervous over a simple tee shot.


John


You and your pals would love Portmahomack GC where the penultimate hole has a school playground well within driving distance down the left side of the fairway.....


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2016, 11:32:46 AM »
Richard


Great post. Of course, Darwin had it right as usual. When you read of courses being partly judged on how much "furniture" they have and such like, you can't help thinking a more emotional and intuitive judgement is more worthwhile. You might want to start a thread on courses that meet the Darwin test.


Re Luffness - I played it for the first time this year after many years of "looking over the fence" at it from Gullane. I was very much looking forward to it and wasn't disappointed. The holes, and the greens in particular, on the clubhouse side of the road are fantastic. Not a course for rating, leave that for the championship courses, just one to be enjoyed I think.


Niall

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2016, 11:40:09 AM »
North Berwick also has the finest hazard in all of golf. Any guesses?

The Firth of Forth when the tide is out.  A shot from the beach onto the second green is one of my favorite memories in golf.


I thought the car park along the right side of the drivable 18th was genius, even if it was built before cars were invented. I don't recall a casual round of golf where everyone in the group was so nervous over a simple tee shot.


John


You and your pals would love Portmahomack GC where the penultimate hole has a school playground well within driving distance down the left side of the fairway.....


Rich


Rich, have you ever played the Santa Barbara Muni?   The 16th used to be hole with a fence down the left side with school kids on the playground hard against the fence.  Played there a couple of years ago, now 16 is a 200 yard par 3 angled well away from the fence. 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2016, 12:03:28 PM »
Some thoughts and photos of Muirfield and rough here - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62111.msg1475367.html#msg1475367


Once upoon a time I believe the 'Driver' was called the 'Play Club', as in get the ball in play. When Jack Nicklaus won The Open at Muirfield in 1966 he hardly used the driver at all and I believe Phil Mickelson didn't even carry a Driver when he won there a couple of years ago. Is there a message here?


As a yee olde man of great links experience once said to me "keep the ball on the short grass and stay out of the bunkers on links courses and you'll usually take the money".


Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2016, 12:22:45 PM »
Sean

I don't think I do miss the point you are trying to make. Clearly not many people agree with you as these courses are readily enjoyed by a great many people.

Niall

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2016, 12:49:01 PM »
OT-ish: I didn't know until just now that NBGC ran the Scottish Boys Championship itself until 1968.  Huh.  Papa Shanley played it in 1962, I think.  I shamed him by never being good enough to enter.  He's kind enough not to make me feel bad about it.

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2016, 02:59:22 PM »
Whether we like it or not, "greatest" is a social construct as much as anything. Is the Mona Lisa the greatest painting?  Or just the most famous?


I would put North Berwick in the same rank as RCD and Dornoch and Ballybunion and Royal Melbourne.  Great courses that have never enjoyed the fame of hosting a major championship.  And I hope none of these places ever will, because it would probably ruin them.  Let's keep the secrets between us, the golf nuts. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2016, 07:46:16 PM »
Sean

I don't think I do miss the point you are trying to make. Clearly not many people agree with you as these courses are readily enjoyed by a great many people.


Niall



Heavy sigh...you still obviously don't get it.  One day the penny will drop....heavy rough takes far more away from the game than it adds.  It doesn't matter if the coat it wears has a Muirfield or NB label...its a bad label. Saying people still enjoy heavy rough courses is akin to saying you wish a dish was better seasoned, but you still enjoyed it.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2016, 08:03:56 PM »
Sean,


You have a point even if I can't agree. I didn't lose a ball, nor did anyone else in my group, at North Berwick, but I did push my drive on The Pit into the rough and had to chip out to the wall. Oh, how I wish I could have hit a clean shot to that beautiful green. I don't feel robbed so much as I feel incompetent. Robbed is so much more in the moment or the culture of today.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2016, 08:12:48 PM »
Truth is, I still believe you have to earn the right to hit a great approach to a great hole.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2016, 08:22:42 PM »
Truth is, I still believe you have to earn the right to hit a great approach to a great hole.

Graham came to Scotland believing "it's wide-open over there", thinking it would be a birdie barrage. I'm laughing out loud thinking of the shots we saw him play.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2016, 08:38:41 PM »
I thought the exact same thing only to find a country and its people to be nothing what I expected while exceeding my wildest of dreams.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 08:41:05 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2016, 03:02:54 AM »
Truth is, I still believe you have to earn the right to hit a great approach to a great hole.


For sure, but that isn't the same thing as there being a great approach or no approach...that dichotomy should rarely exist.  A huge aspect of strategic golf is based on finding the ball and having a choice for the next shot. In other words, we talk all the time about how a hole should be played, but strategic design is mostly about how it shouldn't be played, but its still playable.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2016, 03:05:03 AM »
John,
You're welcome!
I'd love to know which particular preconceptions we most unexpectedly destroyed?
Come back soon.

F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2016, 03:08:16 AM »
Sean

I don't think I do miss the point you are trying to make. Clearly not many people agree with you as these courses are readily enjoyed by a great many people.


Niall



Heavy sigh...you still obviously don't get it.  One day the penny will drop....heavy rough takes far more away from the game than it adds.  It doesn't matter if the coat it wears has a Muirfield or NB label...its a bad label. Saying people still enjoy heavy rough courses is akin to saying you wish a dish was better seasoned, but you still enjoyed it.


Ciao


No Sean, I do understand what you're saying (even heavier sigh), I just don't agree with it and clearly lots of others don't either. Read this thread, NB isn't getting a bad rep, just the opposite, and this is a course you think is too tight. So, does that mean folks on here like "heavy rough" courses or that maybe you're in a minority even on here ?


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2016, 03:29:08 AM »
Niall


God help me if I ever happened on a course you maintained....I would have to carry a torch and burn my way to the green  ;)


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2016, 06:54:49 AM »
Sean
 
If I was ever let loose with maintenance equipment there would likely be a bloodbath.
 
If on the other hand I was elevated to an executive management position then I can fairly say the course would be set out in the manner of a traditional links; there would be no caddies, obviously; the beer would be cold; and you would be made most welcome.
 
Niall

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