Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?

[John Kavanaugh]

It has the views, the turf, the iconic holes of epic design, returns to a charming welcoming town, has a children's course that you are not allowed to play without a child in tow, it's old, really, really old, a perfect clubhouse, a great proshop, a huge body of water, great architectural heritage, epic structural architecture along side...An undiscovered sense of peace, an unmentionable welcoming nature, a championship history supporting amateur and professional golf. What more could it need, or worse, what is missing?

[Mark Pavy]

A jug

[John Kavanaugh]

A jug

I get that it is not a Royal TPC, but really, we're better than that.

[John Kavanaugh]

While I'll admit that the set of greens at North Berwick are not the finest in the world I have yet to see a better individual green than their 16th. It is so great it made a town in France cocktail one upmanship. The redan is book in itself, the pit spittakeable, wow, just wow.

[Mark Pavy]

And you suggest that 1 course could be the Greatest in the World. You're right, we're better than that.

[John Kavanaugh]

North Berwick also has the finest hazard in all of golf. Any guesses?

[John Kavanaugh]

And you suggest that 1 course could be the Greatest in the World. You're right, we're better than that.

Yes, I have always believed that there is a greatest course in the world on any given day. That would limit the number to 365 and a quarter, though somewhere around 25 is more realistic.

[Mark Pavy]

And you suggest that 1 course could be the Greatest in the World. You're right, we're better than that.

Yes, I have always believed that there is a greatest course in the world on any given day. That would limit the number to 365 and a quarter, though somewhere around 25 is more realistic.

[Mike Sweeney]

I am happy to see you are smoking that Scotland Doobie again.


I have been to Scotland but did not play. It was the Wham! era and we were busy chasing women with cool accents


Isn't this the same argument for Royal Dornoch? And it is a Royal, is more remote, and some other Karma that seems to be appreciated here.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think Dornoch may be an easier argument simply because it doesn't have a world renowned close neighbor like Muirfield. North Berwick is in a tough neighborhood that eliminates the simple weather or seasonal argument.


note: I have not played Muirfield or Dornoch.

[Sven Nilsen]

While I'll admit that the set of greens at North Berwick are not the finest in the world I have yet to see a better individual green than their 16th. It is so great it made a town in France cocktail one upmanship.

John:


Care to share a picture of the copycat green from Biarritz?  Or, at the very least, a written description.


Waiting with bated breath.


Sven

[Sean_A]

JakaB


If it is any consolation...I may be the only person on the planet that thinks NB is better than its charming outward appearance.  It makes the top 5 of my Happy 100 and I think it is top 5 in GB&I.  A lot of very good holes are never talked about because of the iconic set of holes.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

As someone obviously needs to play the contrarian, let me start.  The greens aren't interesting enough.  Yes, 16 is whacky.  But really?  So many of the others are basically flat.  Also, some of the greatest golf on the planet but a fairly mundane front 9.  TOC has it's dull holes but even they tend to have at least very interesting greens.


Probably great.  But the greatest?  Not on any given day.


Likely the second best course in East Lothian, though, which is pretty impressive.

[Matt Dawson]

Because they won't let you play from the white tees? 

[Ronald Montesano]

"Bated" is a form of "abate," which means “to diminish, beat down, or reduce.” So when you're waiting with bated (read: abated) breath, you're so eager, anxious, excited, or frightened that you're almost holding your breath. Shakespeare used the phrase "with bated breath" in The Merchant of Venice.[/color]Aug 2, 2012

[John Kavanaugh]

Because they won't let you play from the white tees? 

I had heard this was an issue before my trip to Scotland but didn't sniff any such requirement at a single course I visited. At TOC on 17 the caddies goaded us to step back to the white tees.

[Matt Dawson]

Then you were indeed fortunate, John.

As I have posted before, at NBWL the otherwise affable starter Sam informed us in no uncertain terms that we were simply not permitted on the hallowed competition tees, no matter who we were.

As a result, 5800-odd yards from forward yellow tees in the middle of summer felt a little disappointing to be honest, and severely coloured my experience and enjoyment of the course

[Mark Pearce]

Then you were indeed fortunate, John.

As I have posted before, at NBWL the otherwise affable starter Sam informed us in no uncertain terms that we were simply not permitted on the hallowed competition tees, no matter who we were.

As a result, 5800-odd yards from forward yellow tees in the middle of summer felt a little disappointing to be honest, and severely coloured my experience and enjoyment of the course

It is always mildly amusing to see visitors from a country where it is almost impossible to gain access to some of the great courses complaining because they didn't get to play the back tees of great courses over here.

[Matt Dawson]

Countries like England?

I live in Surrey Mark

[jeffwarne]

JakaB


If it is any consolation...I may be the only person on the planet that thinks NB is better than its charming outward appearance.  It makes the top 5 of my Happy 100 and I think it is top 5 in GB&I.  A lot of very good holes are never talked about because of the iconic set of holes. No matter how I slice it, NB is one of only four courses I give a 3*...the other three are TOC, Sandwich and Merion.


Ciao

It's far less fun when we agree.....
Though I would put those 4 as "great" period-with no disclaimer or special category
yep, I said it. NB is greater/ better than Muirfield.


and not to continue my threadjack bad habit, but that is why I lament the massive equipment leaps of the last 15 years.(mainly because I see no end in sight)

[Ed Brzezowski]

And you suggest that 1 course could be the Greatest in the World. You're right, we're better than that.

Yes, I have always believed that there is a greatest course in the world on any given day. That would limit the number to 365 and a quarter, though somewhere around 25 is more realistic.

That Freakin Wall?

[David McIntosh]

I doubt the yellow (blue tees being the traditional members' tees at NB) tees would have been shortened to anywhere near 5,800-odd yards during the summer, or at any time during the year for that matter. The club's website lists the yardage from the blue tees as 6,140 yards, with the whites being 6,500, and other than the new tees they've built in recent years (such as on the 6th and 12th) there isn't usually much difference between the members' tees and the competition tees so I suspect that everyday play is somewhere in the 6,200-6,300 yard range.

Mark - I wouldn't say that many of the greens are flat, there are a few that have a great deal of contour such as the 3rd, 7th and 12th; the 16th is unique and the rest all have subtle breaks and tiering. I take your point however in that 6, 8, 13 and 18 are, for the most part, relatively flat. I think the stretch from 5-8 (7 apart) is the less interesting part of the course rather than the front 9 being mundane as there is plenty going on elsewhere with 2, 3, 4, 7 and 9 all being pretty good holes in their own right.

Gullane #1 would be the obvious competition for NB for the second best course in East Lothian title however having played Gullane a few times recently I consider NB to be the better of the two by a distance.

[Mark Pearce]

David,


I was, as I said, being deliberately contrarian!


I agree that there is some interest in 1-4, though none of these is a great hole.  In fact, like so many great courses, NBWL is notable for a run of great golf (from 11-17, in my book, but some would start at 13).


NBWL is miles ahead of Gullane 1 in my book, by the way.  I'd have Renaissance in the running for 2nd best in East Lothian but actually I think NBWL is comfortably ahead of the competition for that spot.


Mark

[Tom_Doak]

David,


I was, as I said, being deliberately contrarian!


I agree that there is some interest in 1-4, though none of these is a great hole.  In fact, like so many great courses, NBWL is notable for a run of great golf (from 11-17, in my book, but some would start at 13).


NBWL is miles ahead of Gullane 1 in my book, by the way.  I'd have Renaissance in the running for 2nd best in East Lothian but actually I think NBWL is comfortably ahead of the competition for that spot.

I'm flattered, but as the architect of The Renaissance Club I can guarantee you are batty for thinking it's nearly as good as North Berwick.  Also ... the 2nd at North Berwick is a great hole.


As to John's question, rankings have always been dominated by "championship" courses, because most of the panelists are very good players who believe that the "ability to host a championship" is an important qualification for a world-class course.  As the makeup of the ratings panels has gradually been populated in recent years by people with no connection to championship golf, more and more of the wonderful shorter courses are being recognized in the lists, but most of the top spots are still held for tournament venues or difficult courses like Pine Valley.  [Dornoch and Ballybunion are the two most prominent exceptions.]


There is really no place I'd rather play than North Berwick.  Being able to play there in the late evenings with my crew when we were building The Renaissance Club was certainly the best work-related golf we've ever got to play.

[David McIntosh]

Mark,

That was noted...I was merely making the counter-argument. 

I think you can safely include 11 and 12 in that great run of golf on the back nine. There's no contest that the back side is the better of the two however the front side is better than a lot of people give it credit for. Your summation that it's (probably) great but not the greatest is spot on in my view.

I haven't played, and actually forgot about, the Renaissance so didn't include that in my thinking (sorry Tom)! Gullane 1 and Dunbar were the closest competition I had in mind to NBWL, but, like I said, I think they're some way behind.