Too cheap to hire a caddie ?

[Niall C]

Tommy


If you played the same course for 15 years, did you really need to take direction from a caddy ? I mean, setting aside them being good company and them briefly updating you on the conditions if you haven't been there for a few weeks, surely you knew the ins and outs of the course yourself ?


Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not cheap enough to take a caddie. I can't afford the $100 a round the guy deserves and can't morally pay any less. As a union contractor I know a little something about pricing yourself out of the market. Like I have said many times before, it is the one occupation once dominated by minorities that is now lily white. An obvious sign of over pricing.

[Thomas Dai]

What I find dreadful is when non-disabled players have the option of using or not using a caddy, which is fine, but those with a disability or a limitation that requires them to use a buggy have to then hire a caddy to drive the buggy. Shame on courses that apply this approach.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Sadly the primary role of the modern resort caddie is to babysit. When I wanted to play Pinehurst #2 with one club and thus not need a caddie I was informed it didn't matter how many clubs I used or if I took a bag at all, I wasn't going out alone. Unless I took a cart that is…makes no sense. I get it though, most guests unaccompanied guests at even private courses couldn't give a damn about local cultural practices, or ropes for that matter.


In other words thanks to the actions of those before us we will all be taking a babysitter on our rounds.

[Mark Chaplin]

At Sunningdale I once booked caddies from myself and a mate as he'd won a charity bid to play with a couple of sporting celebs. We got to the first tee and the female celeb had a large bag and no trolley. Being the consummate gentleman I gave her my caddie and made it clear to the guy I'd be paying him. Needless to say in true Sunningdale caddie style he wouldn't give me a line, help look for my ball, rake my bunker etc. He got the base fee and no more for treating me as a cheapskate for not taking an extra caddie.

[Sven Nilsen]

What I find dreadful is when non-disabled players have the option of using or not using a caddy, which is fine, but those with a disability or a limitation that requires them to use a buggy have to then hire a caddy to drive the buggy. Shame on courses that apply this approach.
Atb

Thomas:


If you give this a bit more thought, you might realize that at certain courses this practice makes a lot of sense, both from a liability and a maintenance perspective.


Sven

[V. Kmetz]

I'm not cheap enough to take a caddie. I can't afford the $100 a round the guy deserves and can't morally pay any less. As a union contractor I know a little something about pricing yourself out of the market. Like I have said many times before, it is the one occupation once dominated by minorities that is now lily white. An obvious sign of over pricing.

I can't fault you for calling it as you see it, but that last bit tells me you don't see very much outside your regular sphere. I say that because in the 100 established clubs within a 30 mile radius of Central Park,your statement of demographics, "now lily white," couldn't be more misstated. I have caddied in this district for 35 years; I was a caddiemaster for 16 of those years; I trained new caddies for the MGA at their Caddie Academies for a handful of these years. I've called six or seven clubs "home" during that time and became intimately familiar with the day-in, day-out operations of about 40 of those 100...


Sorry for the resume, but that's to foundation my report which sees: about 45% African-American, about 30% Latino-Hispanic, about 25% White. I could break it down by ages there too, but it's not germane.


But as to the original question, and some of the response therein, I think this:


A. I completely understand both the cost and interference factor a randomly assigned caddie can yield.  They are mostly unnecessary and expensive for me too, as you can imagine. And while I've never been, I hear the resort courses are indeed populated by many 30 and 40-year old leathery white guys who are called "pro jocks" and all the pejoratives it implies.


B. I really think the Caddie relationship to a player is best enjoyed in the familiar setting...be it a young guy, an old guy, a white guy, a latino guy or what have you, the most rewarding experiences are probably NOT for the visitor but for the member who knows nothing else and whom enjoys the caddie corps for who they are--like a bunch of guys who you are in your softball league on different teams over the years.


C. Yet the question really did revolve around the visitor, the guest, the architectural voyeur who wants to "experience" the course; there I say that those who feel that they do this best alone...are on a small ego trip about their own experience. I can understand resisting a talkative sort with all sorts of unsolicited info, and reads and so forth. But Christ, one is kind of stupid to not use a veteran caddie as a resource for those investigations.


D. I know most of the competition players (both inside and outside the club) value an experienced caddie at these courses...they don't want a bored white teenager or a guy who doesn't understand the nuances of a round as it reveals itself on the course, or some such.


E. And there is then...the unaccompanied player...certainly there are divots and ball marks to clean up, as well as cart traffic to guide, the reminders of slow play and there are other expedient measures that a large outsiders' crowd on a private course make necessary. I remember that Bill Gallo, the old sports cartoonist for the NY Daily News tried to drive his cart over a FOOTbridge, and crashed off the side into a creek...he was just shaken up, his passenger had to be hospitalized.


cheers
vk

[Thomas Dai]

What I find dreadful is when non-disabled players have the option of using or not using a caddy, which is fine, but those with a disability or a limitation that requires them to use a buggy have to then hire a caddy to drive the buggy. Shame on courses that apply this approach.
Atb

Thomas:
If you give this a bit more thought, you might realize that at certain courses this practice makes a lot of sense, both from a liability and a maintenance perspective.
Sven

I have to disagree with you Sven. I'm not talking about driving next to a cliff or on the greens here. Indeed I would suggest that golfers with registered disabilities or limitations are probably more likely to be sensible than the average buggy user. It is doubtful they'd wish to drive wildly with a sterio blazing and swilling beer! They have no desire to hurt themselves, a disability or a limitation is already a burden, or inconvenience others or cause maintenance issues. They do though wish to continue playing the game. What we have here is discrimination and when folks talk about growing the game this kind of approach is inappropriate.


Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

V,

Thanks for that great information. I was coming mainly from what I see on the professional tours. Perhaps the PGA needs a "Rooney Rule" for the hiring of caddies. It appears that their is no lack of properly trained minorities. I'm proud of the work you are doing.

[V. Kmetz]

V,

Thanks for that great information. I was coming mainly from what I see on the professional tours. Perhaps the PGA needs a "Rooney Rule" for the hiring of caddies. It appears that their is no lack of properly trained minorities. I'm proud of the work you are doing.

I think this environmental aspect of the game had been diminshed when the USGA went to permitting outside non-club caddies (1978?) and the Masters went that way in 1983. But as all these things inflated in money and went "professional"...it started to suck in a homogenized way...forty years later, the players all have teams, of which the caddie is like the pit crew chief. You could be right about a Rooney Rule, but it probably has to start with the officials, the administrators and the players themselves


cheers
vk

[Sven Nilsen]

What I find dreadful is when non-disabled players have the option of using or not using a caddy, which is fine, but those with a disability or a limitation that requires them to use a buggy have to then hire a caddy to drive the buggy. Shame on courses that apply this approach.
Atb

Thomas:
If you give this a bit more thought, you might realize that at certain courses this practice makes a lot of sense, both from a liability and a maintenance perspective.
Sven

I have to disagree with you Sven. I'm not talking about driving next to a cliff or on the greens here. Indeed I would suggest that golfers with registered disabilities or limitations are probably more likely to be sensible than the average buggy user. It is doubtful they'd wish to drive wildly with a sterio blazing and swilling beer! They have no desire to hurt themselves, a disability or a limitation is already a burden, or inconvenience others or cause maintenance issues. They do though wish to continue playing the game. What we have here is discrimination and when folks talk about growing the game this kind of approach is inappropriate.


Atb

Trust me Thomas, some of those folks with limitations want a caddy driving the cart for them.


Please note my disclaimer "at certain courses."  It makes total sense at a place like Bandon, first because the routes carts take are very different than how you would walk the course.  And no guest is going to intuitively figure out the right places to drive.  The agronomy team mapped out the prescribed routes, and they expect those routes to be followed.  I guarantee you a first timer driving his own cart isn't going to be able to find the proper way to navigate from 13 tee to 15 green on Bandon Trails.


Second, its not just the guy blaring music and swilling beer that is going to have a safety issue.  Fog, rain and wind are all elements that require cart drivers out here to have a bit of local knowledge.  I hate to remind you about the guys at Pebble who went over the cliff, but I can assure you that it was high on the minds of the decision makers out here when they started putting a caddie in every cart.


This is wild and wooly golf, on rugged terrain.  The courses weren't built for cart use, but they've found a way to accommodate them.  I think it says more about the resort that they'll accommodate those who can't walk, and your call of discrimination is out of line.


Sven

[Jeff Bergeron]

Caddying is a fantastic first job for young people. It's a wonderful learning experience for them both from the caddy yard and the members who they loop for. While I enjoy professional caddies I particularly like being with hard working, ambitious young people. I just finished two days at one of the Americas best golf courses and it was obvious that they value their caddy program and make the proper investment in formal training combined with a membership commitment to work with younger caddies to make them better. My caddy yesterday just completed his freshman year at Carnegie Mellon and is studying chemical and biomedical engineering.
Plus, these caddies play a golf course every Monday that everyone on this site would consider the highlight of their golfing experiences.
Want to grow the game, have great caddy programs.

[Sven Nilsen]

Every time this debate comes up we lose sight of a key aspect, which is that what works at one club or course isn't going to work everywhere.


Tell me how you'd run a junior caddie program at Streamsong, and if it was feasible I'd be all for it.  It isn't, and that's why you get the "leathery white guys" (a nice pejorative from a guy on the inside) toting resort guest bags.


You could run the world's largest Evans Scholar Program out of Bandon, but what would you do for the 8 to 9 months of the year those kids are in school?


And what do you do in the shoulder seasons at XYZ CC on Long Island?  Shut down weekday play?


It is fairly evident that this site is predominantly populated by folks who would prefer not to play with a caddie, which is fine.  If I had to guess, that group is in the minority in the larger scheme of things, whether its a question of every day use or use while on vacation.  As I noted above, the entire question is situational.

[Thomas Dai]

Sven,
You haven't convinced me. To expect someone to put their hand in their pocket to pay for both a buggy and a caddy is just inappropriate. Rules to cover backsides.
Atb

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
You haven't convinced me. To expect someone to put their hand in their pocket to pay for both a buggy and a caddy is just inappropriate. Rules to cover backsides.
Atb

Thomas,


Well, its a far cry better than being told you can't play at all.  Those courses/clubs exist as well.


Sven

[Jeff Bergeron]

Sven,
You haven't convinced me. To expect someone to put their hand in their pocket to pay for both a buggy and a caddy is just inappropriate. Rules to cover backsides.
Atb

Many clubs offer eliminated or reduced cart fees if you take a caddy. They want their caddy programs to thrive.

[Dave McCollum]

My caddie at the old course was a long time caddie who didn’t play golf and couldn’t read putts.  He didn’t say much, pulled clubs, especially the driver, and really helped with the proper lines.  My favorite experience was at the 9th playing significantly downwind.  He gave me two lines, right with a hook or left with a fade (avoid straight down the attractive middle at all costs).  I chose left, hit the drive, and couldn’t see where it ended up.  When I gave him the driver, he didn’t say anything:  he just handed me my putter.  Very cool.

We had a really fine caddie at North Berwick, a retired banker who had just stepped down as the captain of his club.  His knowledge about the course, architecture, and history made the experience all the more enjoyable.  We bought this true gentleman lunch and shared a pint, then went out and played another round with no need for his services the second time around.  Like most golf, it’s all about the people you play with.

I guess I’ve been lucky when I’ve played with a caddie because I’ve enjoyed every round.  For four rounds at Bandon my caddie was a member of the crew building the Preserve and a member of this site.  Doesn’t get much better than that for an architecture nerd.

[V. Kmetz]

Every time this debate comes up we lose sight of a key aspect, which is that what works at one club or course isn't going to work everywhere... the entire question is situational."

Yes that is it in a nutshell...you ought to march the band that brought you. That's the way the host wants it, and few in that world would hear an objection.


I'm personally sorry that you can't do whatever the hell you want to. In a perfect world, only the golfers who wished a caddie should have to take one. In my near-perfect world, thankfully, the players are disappointed when I'm not available and if I've not been for a time, they inquire as to my whereabouts.


Still, the real question of the thread was about the architecture visitor-connoisseur and whether a caddie aids or hinders that absorption...I maintain that if you tell an average (or better) caddie what you want from the get-go, he'll appreciate it just as much as you do, and you'll each have a good day.


...you know we meet A LOT of different types in a season too, and we're just as tremulous about who we've been assigned as one might be about our assignment...the pay factor is that we promised to be there, regardless whether or not you could hit water if you fell out of a boat or if you don't regularly yield at ESC or if you're just a hateful person, we still have to go out there for 4+ hours and tend to your golf. We tacitly promised the club we would, we actually showed up to do so... Pay doesn't excuse anything, a tip - handsome or nominal is just the expression of how well it went for you.


But send a letter to the venue(s) upon whose policies your round was diminished by its insistence of use (and pay) of a caddie. Perhaps they'll hear you, perhaps they won't.


I just don't get the griping HERE about it... What the fuck can I or Sven or other caddie-valuers do about it? I'm doing what I was supposed to. All I can do is defend my own behavior and activities, which is (it seems) largely unpersuasive to the value of that trade.


I like any ideas that make the trade more attractive to the golfer's constituency, but as Sven points out - how can you have these ideal, as-you-see-it-should-be, caddie demographics and rates of pay anywhere a fancy course pops up or you happen to get an invite or play in an outing... ?


And there's too many preachers here already, for one to be looking for choirsmen on such distant topical discussion.


cheers
vk

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy


If you played the same course for 15 years, did you really need to take direction from a caddy ? I mean, setting aside them being good company and them briefly updating you on the conditions if you haven't been there for a few weeks, surely you knew the ins and outs of the course yourself ?


Niall

I like discussion. Often when I'm playing a friendly round with a friend we'll discuss what club to hit or where to land it. You're really right I knew Four Streams very well. I enjoyed discussing shot select one etc. I certainly can do it myself. I've been on a nine day golf trip with a couple friends. Thwre is a lot of discussion about shots etc.

[Carl Rogers]

I was a caddie way back in the early to mid, elementary school, sixties at Wellesley Country Club, outside of Boston.  I have mixed feelings about the experience. 


On the plus side, I got introduced to game, which stuck and made some lunch money, my first "job"! and I got to keep what I made!  I saw a good deal of the various aspects of human nature.


On the minus side, I was treated like a load of manure by the pro, caddie master and members.  I worked very hard and was paid less than minimum wage.

[James Brown]

“I told a friend of mine that I’d been to Scotland and played TOC because I knew he had played it years before.  His response was “Have you ever seen such a mess?”    Dumbfounded for a moment, I saw the light:  “Too cheap to hire a caddie?”  Foolish fellow.”

Hmm, I wonder. I don’t have much time for caddies, not that I have anything against them as people just the idea of anyone telling me what to do on the golf course. That’s my main objection to using them. I want to work things out for myself. To conceive shots and strategies based on my perception of the course and the conditions. That’s the challenge and that’s a big part of the fun for me.

However if you do use them, do you actually learn as much about the course as you would do by playing it yourself several times (ie trial and error), or are you just learning how the caddy thinks you should play to keep you out of trouble ?

Thoughts ?

Niall

Ps. I am cheap. If I took a caddy every time I played a new course, I’d spend in a year about half as much as I do on my subs.

The quality and compatibility of the caddie determine the answer.  I have had maybe 50 caddies in the last 5 years in various places.  A very good caddie that is a perfect fit for you is worth their weight in gold.  They will help you appreciate the architecture and they will make the golf much more fun.   On the flip side, I have had quite a few caddies that ruined the experience. 


My preference is to carry my own bag whenever I can, but playing 36 holes overseas you need one. 

[J_ Crisham]

There are caddies and then there are caddies. This year I've had 3 situations where my looper was a huge asset : Seminole, Camargo, and Oakmont. They knew the greens very well which was crucial. They also could identify where the misses should be. I've also had 2 other rounds this year at top 25 clubs where the caddies just sucked- they completely mailed it in. At Beverly we always take caddies. Our loopers are all high school and college aged kids- about 240 in total. It is a source of meaningful employment for the kids in the neighborhood . We pipeline a good number of the kids into the Evans Scholarship. Our kids will give you a yardage, keep your clubs and ball clean, rake your bunkers and find your ball. They will not be clubbing you and only a few can read greens really well. All of the loops are single bags which I believe provides a better all around service.  This is pretty typical at the privates in Chicago . Our kids earn in the $50-80 range per loop- a very nice wage for a teenager. I've had caddies at Bandon and Streamsong that were fine- I'm not a big fan of the double bag experience . I would rather just carry my bag and simplify my day.

[jeffwarne]

Every time this debate comes up we lose sight of a key aspect, which is that what works at one club or course isn't going to work everywhere.


Tell me how you'd run a junior caddie program at Streamsong, and if it was feasible I'd be all for it.  It isn't, and that's why you get the "leathery white guys" (a nice pejorative from a guy on the inside) toting resort guest bags.


You could run the world's largest Evans Scholar Program out of Bandon, but what would you do for the 8 to 9 months of the year those kids are in school?


And what do you do in the shoulder seasons at XYZ CC on Long Island?  Shut down weekday play?


It is fairly evident that this site is predominantly populated by folks who would prefer not to play with a caddie, which is fine.  If I had to guess, that group is in the minority in the larger scheme of things, whether its a question of every day use or use while on vacation.  As I noted above, the entire question is situational.

There you go again Sven, applying logic and reason to different situations, rather than just looking at it from your own perspective.

[Tim Martin]

I think a "when in Rome" attitude applies to caddies. If the club you are at has a caddie program and it's required then enjoy it. I learned the game as a caddie and have had mostly great experiences over the years. You get an occasional lemon but that will happen with anything. Personally I love having a caddie read putts, give yardages which factor in wind, give driving lines on blind holes etc on a course I haven't played before. I don't feel cheated that I didn't four putt by reading it myself. This same thread has been repeated over and over through the years and usually garners a variety of opinions although the "haters" are the most vocal.

[BHoover]

I think a "when in Rome" attitude applies to caddies. If the club you are at has a caddie program and it's required then enjoy it. I learned the game as a caddie and have had mostly great experiences over the years. You get an occasional lemon but that will happen with anything. Personally I love having a caddie read putts, give yardages which factor in wind, give driving lines on blind holes etc on a course I haven't played before. I don't feel cheated that I didn't four putt by reading it myself. This same thread has been repeated over and over through the years and usually garners a variety of opinions although the "haters" are the most vocal.

You are being far too reasonable, TMart!