Too cheap to hire a caddie ?

[Niall C]

“I told a friend of mine that I’d been to Scotland and played TOC because I knew he had played it years before.  His response was “Have you ever seen such a mess?”    Dumbfounded for a moment, I saw the light:  “Too cheap to hire a caddie?”  Foolish fellow.”

Hmm, I wonder. I don’t have much time for caddies, not that I have anything against them as people just the idea of anyone telling me what to do on the golf course. That’s my main objection to using them. I want to work things out for myself. To conceive shots and strategies based on my perception of the course and the conditions. That’s the challenge and that’s a big part of the fun for me.

However if you do use them, do you actually learn as much about the course as you would do by playing it yourself several times (ie trial and error), or are you just learning how the caddy thinks you should play to keep you out of trouble ?

Thoughts ?

Niall

Ps. I am cheap. If I took a caddy every time I played a new course, I’d spend in a year about half as much as I do on my subs.

[John Kavanaugh]

You obviously have issues with following directions. i.e.: Mr. C.

[Carl Johnson]

No, though I rarely use caddies (but did on TOC, to good advantage).  Two things I don't like about caddies. (1) Those that try to set the pace; and (2) those that volunteer information.  I've mentioned to caddies that I want advice or information only when I ask for it, and that has worked very well for me.

[RJ_Daley]

I don't consider myself in the wealthy status to just afford a caddie at just any course.   But, in my view there are special situations.  As regards TOC, I knew it would be likely my one and only pilgrimage, and I do respect the tradition and profession of the old course caddie, and of the vocation of seriously committed caddies that have long standing relationships with historic and highly acclaimed clubs.  So, for TOC and a very few others where such a professional caddie was available, I have ponied up the cash.  I could not have been happier with the work of my caddie, Cleve, at TOC.  I feel like I tipped him well beyond the 80pound fee, and the only thing I found a bit unfair to him is that I played with 3 other Wisconsin guys, one a past pres of WSGA, and they didn't hire even the Jr caddies (about 30pounds) and were listening in and picking my caddie's brain on shots.  Cleve seemed to take it well, was very attentive to me and I asked for and followed his advise to the best of my abilities.  There is so much to see there in only one round and a bit of wandering along the paths on non golf hours, that it seemed like a no brainer to to honor the caddie tradition there. 

But I have probably only had a caddie about 10 times.  Some were student types and only good for carrying and very general local knowledge that I think I could have worked out for myself, and a probably 3 that I would refer to as professional caddies. 

So, I have done the best I can to support in my modest means way.

[Carl Rogers]

I have only 1 experience with a caddy after more or less 40+ years of golf.  It was at Pinehurst No. 2 last December on a warm day.  The caddy, a gentlemen of my age, early 60's, had a fairly easy time with me.  I hit the ball pretty straight.  My bag has only 11 clubs and 5 or 6 balls in it & very little else.  He told me the distance to the pin and when asked where to miss the green to make for a possible up & down (very important for P#2).  He could not help with the speed of the approach putts and but helped enormously with reading the second putts (many reads are not simple).  He shaved about 5 shots off the round.
Certainly a bucket list round.
I could not afford him for everyday golf.

[JLahrman]

I'm not too cheap. I just don't have any money.

[Niall C]

Carl, Dick and Carl,


When you took a caddy, do you think learned more or less about the course, or did you just feel as though you had been shepherded away from trouble ?


Niall

[Carl Johnson]

Carl, Dick and Carl,


When you took a caddy, do you think learned more or less about the course, or did you just feel as though you had been shepherded away from trouble ?


Niall

In my case, I think mostly it's keeping out of trouble.  At my low skill level that's paramount.  Secondarily, best place to land a shot.  And then help with reading greens is big with me, but only to answer my questions about breaks, etc.  Although I'm not sure I understand what you mean about "learning about the course," I'll say no, that never seems to be the focus.

[Michael Whitaker]

Niall,

I do not take a caddy very often in the UK, but I have hired a caddy on several top courses in The States... with mixed results. Some of the top US courses (especially in the northeast) require a caddy. These caddies I have used have proved very "professional" and primarily focus on shot distance/direction and reading greens. Fair enough... but, given the opportunity I would carry my own bag and discover things for myself. As you say, that's part of the fun of playing golf... seeing if you can figure out what to try... not just hitting good shots.

A few courses/resorts I have visited either require or strongly "suggest" that you use a caddy: Bandon, Ballyneal, Streamsong for example. First time around these courses the caddies were a big help... especially where blind shots are involved. But, after that, I'd rather forego the caddy and carry or trolley my bag.

My biggest pet peeve about caddies is when I see a group of four golfers, each with his own caddy. I know it is going to be a SLOW round because each caddy has to "advise" their player on every shot and there is all this discussion and chatter going on about distance, direction and club selection. They act as if they are playing in the US Open and must grind over every shot. Arrgghh!!! 

My favorite caddy situation is when I am playing a course for the first time and there is ONE caddy in the group providing general directions and advice for everyone on the tee... then helping the guys who might be in need during the play of the hole... then helping with putts as requested. Everyone pays the caddy a decent fee and he comes out well paid and the game is not overly delayed. I've had more positive caddy experiences this way than any other.

[Carl Rogers]

Niall,
After the first hole at Pinehurst #2, I realized it would be multiple multiple rounds before any amount of course learning was possible.  The caddy primarily kept me away from the no-go areas.  However, on Holes 8 & 15 everywhere except 10 feet below the hole is a no-go area.

[Dave McCollum]

To be honest, I can count on my fingers the rounds played with a caddie.  Like Michael said, one or two per group giving tips to all has worked well for me.  I think one’s first, and perhaps only, trip around TOC it’s money well spent.  I didn’t have one at RCD, but they put me with some other visitors who did and remember that being useful.  As my foolish friend found out, he hit it in all wrong places and hated TOC.  Given how much we loved it, I thought it was humorous.

[Greg Taylor]

I've had a caddie a handful of times. In my experience they rarely enhance the experience and are far more likely to be a PITA. The worst type are in in your face, I'm really funny type.


Bag carriers are better. A spotty 16 year old kid who barely talks is ideal.

[Brian Finn]

While I don't have a caddie for the majority of my rounds, I have used caddies on many occasions, and haven't had many bad experiences.  In fact, I've had many outstanding experiences.  Caddies have significantly enhanced my experience for many rounds of golf. 

In the pro looper category, I've had numerous caddies that not only provided all of the baseline services, but also provided terrific advice on ideal lines, trouble spots, green reading, etc.  To avoid potential conflicts, I always ask what yardage the shot will play (sometimes clarifying if they are providing the actual or effective distance), and choose my own club accordingly.  Nobody likes a caddie they just met trying to pull clubs for them, but I've only run into that once or twice and nipped it in the bud without an issue.  I'll also ask questions such as whether a run-up shot is appropriate, or whether certain features can be effectively utilized.  Of course, it's still up to me to execute, which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.  I've found that many caddies are good players and/or students of the game, and therefore provide some pretty darn good advice most of the time. 

I've had plenty of young kids that are just learning to caddie as well, in which case I'm happy just to have someone to carry my bag and rake bunkers for me.  It's nice to put a few bucks in a kid's pocket, especially when they are part of programs such as the Evans Scholars Program, which has sent thousands of deserving kids to college.  There's a wide spectrum of caddies, and I've found just about all of them quite helpful.

On several occasions, I have had caddies that knew quite a bit about the history and architecture of the course.  While this is a bonus (not an expectation), it is terrific when you have someone showing you around in addition to (or in place of) a member host. 

I've had good caddie experiences at resorts (very recently had one of the best caddies ever at Pinehurst #2), well-regarded private clubs (perhaps the best caddie I've ever had was at Sleepy Hollow - he made my round and my overall experience outstanding), and smaller clubs around the country.  In my recent (first) trip to Scotland, I used the same caddie for all of my rounds in St. Andrews.  Having grown up there, and worked 35+ years on the links, he knew every inch of ground on the courses and more about the history than just about anyone on this site.  I'm not a rich guy, so the cost wasn't an afterthought, but it was the best money I spent on the trip. 

I could go on, but I won't.  I just don't get the anti-caddie sentiment that seems so prevalent here, and thought I'd put one mark in the positive column.

[BHoover]

As one who caddied for several years growing up, I enjoy taking a caddie every now and then. My favorite experiences have been having a kid to carry my clubs and occasionally share stories about the course.

I wish I could justify using a caddie more often, but it's enjoyable to be able to have someone help out every once in a while.

Personally, I prefer to not have a caddie pick clubs or read putts, unless I ask for that. For that reason, I tend to avoid "professional" caddies.

[Eric Smith]

While I don't have a caddie for the majority of my rounds, I have used caddies on many occasions, and haven't had many bad experiences.  In fact, I've had many outstanding experiences.  Caddies have significantly enhanced my experience for many rounds of golf. 

In the pro looper category, I've had numerous caddies that not only provided all of the baseline services, but also provided terrific advice on ideal lines, trouble spots, green reading, etc.  To avoid potential conflicts, I always ask what yardage the shot will play (sometimes clarifying if they are providing the actual or effective distance), and choose my own club accordingly.  Nobody likes a caddie they just met trying to pull clubs for them, but I've only run into that once or twice and nipped it in the bud without an issue.  I'll also ask questions such as whether a run-up shot is appropriate, or whether certain features can be effectively utilized.  Of course, it's still up to me to execute, which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.  I've found that many caddies are good players and/or students of the game, and therefore provide some pretty darn good advice most of the time. 

I've had plenty of young kids that are just learning to caddie as well, in which case I'm happy just to have someone to carry my bag and rake bunkers for me.  It's nice to put a few bucks in a kid's pocket, especially when they are part of programs such as the Evans Scholars Program, which has sent thousands of deserving kids to college.  There's a wide spectrum of caddies, and I've found just about all of them quite helpful.

On several occasions, I have had caddies that knew quite a bit about the history and architecture of the course.  While this is a bonus (not an expectation), it is terrific when you have someone showing you around in addition to (or in place of) a member host. 

I've had good caddie experiences at resorts (very recently had one of the best caddies ever at Pinehurst #2), well-regarded private clubs (perhaps the best caddie I've ever had was at Sleepy Hollow - he made my round and my overall experience outstanding), and smaller clubs around the country.  In my recent (first) trip to Scotland, I used the same caddie for all of my rounds in St. Andrews.  Having grown up there, and worked 35+ years on the links, he knew every inch of ground on the courses and more about the history than just about anyone on this site.  I'm not a rich guy, so the cost wasn't an afterthought, but it was the best money I spent on the trip. 

I could go on, but I won't.  I just don't get the anti-caddie sentiment that seems so prevalent here, and thought I'd put one mark in the positive column.

Nice post, Brian. My caddie at St Andrews (Norm) was a huge part of the reason I had such a great time. Simply a terrific human being I hope to see again one day.

[Jon McSweeny]

If you are frequently derelict as to proper club cleaning, a caddie round every so often helps get everything nice and shiny again. And I don't care if I only need 18 putts for a round at Augusta, if I get my bag back with a dirty club in it, I had a lousy caddie.

More seriously, caddies are a lot like golfers. Some are really wonderful to have around, most are basically neutral all things considered, and occasionally you run into one who needs to be buried in a bunker.

The one time I really recommend a caddie is when you are paired with an infrequent or causal golfer and don't want to be the guide all day (say a Pebble trip with your Sales Manager who isn't much of a golfer.) A good caddie can help you avoid a bit of the babysitting that might eat up your enjoyment of the day otherwise.

[Frank M]

everyone likes what they like.

[RJ_Daley]

Nail, in my case with Cleve at TOC, I got a partner for a day that I think, loves his job.  I think he has been a caddie there some 15 years.  He has looped for pros, VIPs, horrid players, great players, and has seen every manner of swing style, attitude and knowledge of the venue from ignorant to TOC experts. 

I put myself in the category of "pilgrim" and person who had familiarized himself with more than the average guy's preparation to know the history and features of TOC.   I'm sure he has seen the excitement many like we fanatics on GCA.com would feel when they finally find themselves on the first tee, at the bottom of those iconic steps leading to the R&A clubhouse, with nervous anticipation and distraction from the long awaited moment. 

I'm sure he has seen a low skills player such as myself who was so excited to be there, that I was destined to yank my opening drive left all the way left to roll under the white fence and a car parked there. 

But as a professional who must take such as a challenge to his professionalism, he watched me dump my next into the byrn and after making an opening 7, took me aside, gave me some very encouraging words which included that he has indeed seen all types, knew I was better than my opening attempt, and was going to use his knowledge and joy for the game to make sure we both felt satisfied when we finished 18.  He gave me many cues and directions I would have never seen from tee boxes or places I ended up down fairways and roughs to get onto the green and ideas on how the putts would break, etc.  He had some interesting comments about the course, and course history, pointing places out along the way where this or that happened to this or that player.  He never lost sight of one of my balls that strayed to rough, even once in gorse.  He know every inch of the course, and where the likely ground reactions would lead.

And as he offered after that first disastrous hole, he got me righted to make 2 birdies, a few pars, enough bogeys and doubles and triple, but with a strong and very satisfied finish.  Thus an unforgettable memory. 

He was a professional caddie who knew his job well, and in my view, an important piece of the whole picture at that particular seminal place in the game we all love. 

[cary lichtenstein]

I always loved a good caddy but there r always a few with an attitude

[Tim Gallant]

As a young guy who enjoys carrying my own clubs, I have only taken caddies maybe a half dozen times. But that isn't to say I don't enjoy or appreciate having one on my round. I would say all of those times the caddies were solid, carried the bag, gave lines, etc.


One time, I was fortunate to be paired with a former pga caddie, who apologised before the round because he had only been at the course for a month or two. Boy was he incredible. He actually made me feel like I was a pro (even though I am an 11 handicap!). He had a perfect way of helping me work through decisions and once we picked the right shot, he instilled a parting word of encouragement that always made me feel good about the shot. Yes, he could pick the lines out correctly and read my putts, but his demeanour was also so positive that he lifted my game and my experience.

[Niall C]

Gents
 
Thank you all for your comments. Dave – apologies for quoting you without acknowledgement and hopefully it’s not out of context. The idea for this thread sprang out of the ranking criteria thread and the idea I had that some courses, particularly some of the older courses, need repeat plays to get an understanding of the strategies and subtilties that makes them great.

My question therefore was whether caddies help or hinder you in understanding a course. In other words, while they might keep you out of trouble and lower your score, do you actually learn as much about the course  as you would have if you had played without a caddy ?
 
Niall

[Sean_A]

Your question sounds similar to committing driving directions to memory if you do it yourself or rely on someone else to feed the directions.  I know for me that if I do the map reading etc myself its far easier to remember directions...and courses.  I think part of the reason is that in both cases I am looking for landmarks and features. 


I rarely take caddies not because I prefer to make my own mistakes, but because I don't want to fork over the cash.  Caddies make an expensive game very expensive.  If I must have a caddy I prefer a teenage bag carrier unless I am solo.  Other than cost, the biggest problem with caddies is that they tend to impinge on the social side of the game too much.  I am not super chatty on the course, but if I see folks only periodically its nice not to fight for floor time. 


Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean,
 
Absolutely, I don’t use caddies for the same reasons you do and probably in the same order of importance. They are an unnecessary expense but I don’t grudge those that want to indulge themselves and use a caddy if they enjoy the experience, it’s just like you, I find they change the dynamic of the group and not in a good way.

However I guess my question isn’t aimed at the likes of you and I, but more for those that do use a caddy intermittently, particularly when they go to play a new course. Is being told what to do better than learning from experience when it comes to getting to grips with the course design ?
 
Niall 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Yes 

[Tommy Williamsen]

At a club where I was a member for about fifteen years I took the same two or three caddies. They were good guys and got to know my game pretty well. They added to the enjoyment of the round. They generally knew the course conditions: how the course was running,how the greens were holding, and the speed of the greens. When I am unfamiliar with a course they help with understanding the slope of the greens for the shot into them, and the line for putts. A good caddie can help scoring. That said, I have had poor experiences with some. At TOC my caddie was invaluable. After he figured out how far I hit the ball he could give me the best line off the tee.