Too cheap to hire a caddie ?

[Michael Whitaker]

Sean and Ulrich - at most American clubs that offer caddies the caddies are NOT employees. They are "independent contractors" who provide a service at their own discretion. The clubs created this setup to dodge employment laws requiring employers to provide benefits (like health insurance), overtime pay and employer-side payroll taxes. That's why there is all this confusion over rates and tips. Players are usually quoted a "suggested" caddy fee by the club, but they always add that an additional discretionary gratuity is appreciated. I'm like you Ulrich, I wish the caddy or club would just quote me the price the caddy wants to receive for his services and eliminate the drama at the end of the round.
For caddies to truly qualify as "independent contractors" the club cannot mandate how they perform their work. According to the Internal Revenue Service:  You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed.

Here is the definition from the IRS website: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined

I think a lot of caddies are due benefits and payroll taxes from clubs that stiffed them over the years by forcing them to work as "independent contractors" when they were really employees.

[Tim Martin]

Sean and Ulrich - at most American clubs that offer caddies the caddies are NOT employees. They are "independent contractors" who provide a service at their own discretion. The clubs created this setup to dodge employment laws requiring employers to provide benefits (like health insurance), overtime pay and employer-side payroll taxes. That's why there is all this confusion over rates and tips. Players are usually quoted a "suggested" caddy fee by the club, but they always add that an additional discretionary gratuity is appreciated. I'm like you Ulrich, I wish the caddy or club would just quote me the price the caddy wants to receive for his services and eliminate the drama at the end of the round.
For caddies to truly qualify as "independent contractors" the club cannot mandate how they perform their work. According to the Internal Revenue Service:  You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed.

Here is the definition from the IRS website: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined

I think a lot of caddies are due benefits and payroll taxes from clubs that stiffed them over the years by forcing them to work as "independent contractors" when they were really employees.

Mike-I don't understand all the confusion about the rate. I always ask in the golf shop what the "standard" rate is including tip. I have never had a problem. If you really like the guy than you can tack on whatever or in the opposite case maybe subtract something from the tip portion. I usually tack on 20% just like I do in a restaurant with exception that I will round up to the next $10 or $84 becomes $90 and $94 becomes $100 as I don't want to pay with singles.

Ulrich-The "standard" rate in the US is 15 to 20 percent. Nothing hard about that. As Sean said you have to remember the custom is different here than in Europe. If you don't want to tip then go through the drive-thru.

[John Kavanaugh]

Exactly, if you can't communicate with a guy after 4 hours you have the problem.  I just finished a week with a guy who got a set fee plus 20% of my winnings. It's like he was a lucky charm.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's also a myth that wait staff in Europe gets offended when you over tip.

[Mike Sweeney]

It's also a myth that wait staff in Europe gets offended when you over tip.

One week to one country and now you are an expert on all of Europe! I love GCA.com!

[Tim Martin]

It's also a myth that wait staff in Europe gets offended when you over tip.

One week to one country and now you are an expert on all of Europe! I love GCA.com!

Mike-Is he wrong?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven and Kyle...The Americans with Disabilities Act is one of the great pieces of civil rights legislation and President George  H. W.  Bush's greatest accomplishment.  It is really quite simple in that those with disabilities are not to be discriminated against.  Thus accommodations must be made for access if such accommodations are reasonable.


Your sarcastic comments come across as having disdain for the disabled.  I simply don't understand.

Like Kyle, I have no disdain for the disabled.  I am glad that the folks that run Bandon Dunes found a way to accommodate them on golf courses that were designed to be walked.  I don't see why you and others think that having a caddy do the driving (for the reasons I laid out, which are entirely reasonable) is some kind of discrimination.  It isn't.


What you aren't realizing is that those same people taking a cart would 99 out of 100 times be taking a caddy anyway if they were walking.  The cost of the cart is nominal.  What is hard to measure is how much more enjoyable the rounds of golf are for them.

[V. Kmetz]

Here's a new one. I currently can not play without a caddie due to a back injury. I can't ride in carts, I can't carry my own and I can't keep up pushing a trolley. Had a fantastic time this weekend walking 18 each day with a caddie driving my cart along side me. It's difficult to explain but having a caddie drive my cart while I walked alone was more enjoyable than having a guy on the bag. The cart enabled him to drive up to my ball, lift clean and place it (will it ever stop raining), get a yardage all just in time for me to arrive. My partners, who were all in carts alone, said they never saw me play so fast. The caddie, a 68 year old good friend, also said it was easier on him. Win/win.

There are about four or five players I've known for several years who have me do this for similar ortho-medical reasons. One of them was fantastic player in the day. Though we can and have talked NFL football for hours, he gets his private time while I'm out ahead scoping his shot...whenever there's a big hill or he's pucked it over the other side of the green is when he jumps in, I slide over so that he can at least stabilize himself against the steering wheel. I'm always able to get out ahead and watch the tee shots like a spotter, I'm always ready with his distance, the wind, and a seed bottle for a splashy divot and he gets to navigate the worst of it and just play the best he can...plus he has a place to stow his smokes, his watch, and a couple of cups of ice water. If it gets slow on a hot day, we park over by the shade of a tree.


After three and half decades of this, believe me I don't even feel the labor of carrying or not carrying, but this method definitely frees me up to the maximum potential to serve someone's golf. Caddying...for multiple players especially...is all about anticipation and multi-tasking...where might the player go, what might he do, whose away, how can I time raking, reading, tending, pulling, for 2-4 guys...and having a cart at my disposal is like having the internet, compared to a smoke signal.


That's what it's all about guys...serving the man's (men's) golf...I was taught and absorbed that THAT is the whole fucking ball of wax...to free the player up of all other labors, the divots, the raking, the yardage, the tending, the pulling, the searching...and let him just play his game. As one gets older and more mature (and still plies the trade), the nuances spurt...and after a real long time, you get a person who knows how to serve many, many peoples' golf in a variety of contexts, tournament and recreational.


Still...I can't...(no, I can believe it) that this conversation has such oxygen still...


But I'll add something to this whole rate/tip thing...


Tomorrow at Club X, there is an outing, where every two players are assigned a caddie. Under normal circumstances the rate would be $85 a bag, this would be announced by loudspeaker to the staged golfers about to roll...the caddiemaster will say, every time, "We have a renown caddie program. If the caddies honor that reputation, you can reward them with anything you like." And usually what happens is that each caddie receives $25-$50 a bag on top of the $85, depending on how well they were received...making for a total of $170 + ($50 - $100) tip... for two bags or $220-$270 for the day.


Tomorrow however, it is the outing organizers wish each year that their players not have to reach into their pockets at all, so they pay "build in" a $25 tip per bag in what they pay "out the window" and so this "tip included rate" is $110 per bag, usually two bags, so $220. This will be announced with equal clarity, the same way every time..."The caddies base rate plus a tip of $25 per bag has been paid by your host. The caddies are aware of this and are not to solicit a tip which has already been paid. Please enjoy your day."

Of course, in 90% of these cases, the outing organizer is either picking up the caddies fee as part of their hosting (and so all one is giving is the tip), or it was built into the price you paid to get into the American Cancer Society outing at Top 100 Course X (you wanted to play there at those built-in prices).


cheers
vk

[John Kavanaugh]

I also count Rome as part of Europe. I admit that they may look at you like you are stupid for tipping but wow do they come back for more, or like a bribe, let you make your own rules. It's an easy way to a great time.

[Tim Martin]

I also count Rome as part of Europe. I admit that they may look at you like you are stupid for tipping but wow do they come back for more, or like a bribe, let you make your own rules. It's an easy way to a great time.

Has anyone any anecdotal evidence regardless of location where someone was mad that they were over tipped? I was in Ireland in June and nobody said "hey wait that's too much". GMAB

[Cliff Hamm]

Sven and Kyle...The Americans with Disabilities Act is one of the great pieces of civil rights legislation and President George  H. W.  Bush's greatest accomplishment.  It is really quite simple in that those with disabilities are not to be discriminated against.  Thus accommodations must be made for access if such accommodations are reasonable.


Your sarcastic comments come across as having disdain for the disabled.  I simply don't understand.

Like Kyle, I have no disdain for the disabled.  I am glad that the folks that run Bandon Dunes found a way to accommodate them on golf courses that were designed to be walked.  I don't see why you and others think that having a caddy do the driving (for the reasons I laid out, which are entirely reasonable) is some kind of discrimination.  It isn't.


What you aren't realizing is that those same people taking a cart would 99 out of 100 times be taking a caddy anyway if they were walking.  The cost of the cart is nominal.  What is hard to measure is how much more enjoyable the rounds of golf are for them.

 Sven.... You say you do not have disdain for the disabled.  But if that is the case why such sarcasm?

[John Kavanaugh]

VK,


My opponents are begging me to get well and quit taking a caddie. I'm killing it and my added expense does nothing to cushion their losses.

[Tim Martin]

---

[Chris Kane]

When I worked in a hotel bar in St Andrews in 2006-07, Americans who didn't tip were viewed with utter disdain. There is a real double standard!!

[Sven Nilsen]

Cliff:

The sarcasm isn't directed at the disabled, its directed at the morons claiming requiring a caddy to drive a cart is somehow discriminatory.

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain this to you further.

Sven

[Cliff Hamm]

Nor do I...it is simply not necessary to have a caddy if you have appropriate signage. This Is especially true at Streamong.  I will not further debate this topic.  Unfortunately your comments connote a condescending attitude toward the disabled.


 BTW do you feel it was appropriate for the PGA of America to have the disabled walk over 1 mile to get to the clubhouse?   They provided six carts and that was it. Was this an appropriate accommodation?

[Sven Nilsen]

Cliff:



The PGA situation is apples and oranges.  I don't know enough about what they did to make a judgment.  Perhaps it was appropriate, but from the way you describe it it doesn't sound like it was.  But I don't know all of the logistical decisions (or lack thereof) that went into the result.


This side conversation started because another poster chimed in that having to pay for a cart and a caddie, as a rule, was too much to ask.  I was trying to point out (obviously unsuccessfully) that there is more going into these decisions and policies than just trying to get some guys some work.  At Bandon, there are a number of logistical issues that brought about the requirement to have a caddie drive.


Here's a short list of cart policies from the UK:


Ireland
Ballybunion - no carts on the Old, carts allowed on the Cashen
Waterville - carts allowed
Doonbeg - carts allowed with a caddie
Old Head - carts allowed
Tralee - only with a medical certificate and a caddie is required
European Club - carts allowed
Lahinch,- only with a medical certificate


No. Ireland
Royal County Down - no carts allowed
Royal Portrush - no carts allowed


Scotland
The Old Course - only for those with a permanent disability and only from April to Oct., caddie required
Castle Course - same as The Old Course
All other courses at St. Andrew's - seniors or those with a medical certificate, caddie required (I've heard conflicting rules at certain of these courses)
Carnoustie - no carts allowed
Muirfield - only those with a medical certificate
Kingsbarns - only those with a medical certificate, caddie required
Royal Troon - no carts allowed
Turnberry - only those with a medical certificate, caddie required


England
Royal Birkdale - only those with a medical certificate
Royal St. Georges - only those with a medical certificate
Royal Lytham & St. Annes - only those with a medical certificate, caddie required
Royal Liverpool - only those with a medical certificate
Sunningdale - only those with a medical certificate, caddie required


As has been discussed in this broader conversation, what works one place isn't going to work everywhere (this is the reasonableness test you brought up earlier).  Every course has a policy that meets their own particular situation.  I can understand why the flatter courses don't require a caddie/driver, just like I can understand why courses like Doonbeg want you to have a tour guide.  (As an aside, I am a bit shocked that Old Head doesn't, but I haven't been there and have no idea as to the safety concerns other than knowing there are fairly large cliffs.)  In the more dangerous situations, sometimes signage will be sufficient, but that is not always the case.


If you really want to talk about discrimination, is it more discriminatory to require you have a caddie drive than it is to completely exclude those who can only play in a cart?  But of course, we covered all this earlier in the thread, but maybe having real life examples will make it stick.


And I'd request that you refrain from making ad hominem attacks as to my attitudes towards the disabled.  Its a disservice to productive conversation, and nothing I've written herein has even hinted at a personal bias towards exclusionary practices.


Sven

[Michael Whitaker]

It's also a myth that wait staff in Europe gets offended when you over tip.

One week to one country and now you are an expert on all of Europe! I love GCA.com!

Mike-Is he wrong?

No one is offended, Tim, when you give them free money. But, I can assure you that a 10-12% tip in the UK for most anything is considered generous. A 20% tip from an American is often looked upon as arrogance and just showing off. But, like I said... everyone likes free money and they will definitely fawn over you if you spread it around.

I've only spent 8-10 weeks per year in the UK for the past 11 years, so I might be wrong. I have noticed in the past few years a great number of restaurants and bars have started adding a 10% or 12% "optional" service charge. Do you think the servers actually get that money? Most of those funds, I would guess, just reduces the owners overhead. When possible I always leave a cash tip... never on a credit card. I just want to make sure that whatever I leave for the staff winds up in the hands of the staff.

When I was in Australia my local friends advised me to not tip anything... zero. They said the wait staff, for example, were well paid and didn't require gratuities. I think the minimum wage in Australia is $17 an hour. How many of the illustrious business moguls on this site have employees making less than that... much less than that. In America the minimum wage is $7.25.

[jeffwarne]

When I worked in a hotel bar in St Andrews in 2006-07, Americans who didn't tip were viewed with utter disdain. There is a real double standard!!

But were generally forgiven once they were revealed as Canadians

[Ulrich Mayring]

If caddies are indeed independent contractors, then the club or any of its employees certainly can't quote me a price. Only the caddie himself can do that. In that sense it is the same as taking a lesson from a pro. When I do that, there are price lists in the office how much each pro charges for an hour. Obviously, more experienced pros will charge more, so I can easily "shop around" and the system is completely transparent. I can also go up to the pro and negotiate my own deal, if I like.

But I have never tipped a pro, in fact I have never tipped an independent contractor. Tips are only for employees, because they don't have the power to raise their salary, if they think they are really good. Any self-employed person can take care of tips himself by adjusting his price point to what he thinks his performance standards are.

Ulrich

[Niall C]

I'd love to drive a Tesla but drive  13 mpg monster truck instead. Gas tax, hell yea!!! If you work in golf pay for golf and take a caddie. It's really that simple. I don't know but I've gleaned that the OP makes his living in the industry.

Nice try, but actually I don't.


Niall

[James Brown]

I always ask about caddie rates in the shop and then discuss it with my caddie on about the 4th hole to confirm.  Every course handles caddies a bit differently and you usually get some good stories when you ask how they are treated by the club.

[V. Kmetz]

VK,


My opponents are begging me to get well and quit taking a caddie. I'm killing it and my added expense does nothing to cushion their losses.

I believe it...I've been party to several good-natured ripostes with/from opponents as I was guiding a player/team to another windfall. Once I was forecaddying for one of my regular group on carts (they play for what ends up being $500-$2000) and I gave a read to one fellow whose been a frequent loser to the player I was speaking of before (who was his partner this round)...he missed badly...he barked out, "Shit Read!"... his partner came to my defense..."Mike, Vinnie's just another expensive piece of equipment you can't hit."


cheers
vk

[corey miller]

Maybe courses that have a caddie drive for the player are interested in lessening the damage to the golf course?   Have you seen where people drive these things? 

[Tim Martin]

It's also a myth that wait staff in Europe gets offended when you over tip.

One week to one country and now you are an expert on all of Europe! I love GCA.com!

Mike-Is he wrong?

No one is offended, Tim, when you give them free money. But, I can assure you that a 10-12% tip in the UK for most anything is considered generous. A 20% tip from an American is often looked upon as arrogance and just showing off. But, like I said... everyone likes free money and they will definitely fawn over you if you spread it around.

I've only spent 8-10 weeks per year in the UK for the past 11 years, so I might be wrong. I have noticed in the past few years a great number of restaurants and bars have started adding a 10% or 12% "optional" service charge. Do you think the servers actually get that money? Most of those funds, I would guess, just reduces the owners overhead. When possible I always leave a cash tip... never on a credit card. I just want to make sure that whatever I leave for the staff winds up in the hands of the staff.

When I was in Australia my local friends advised me to not tip anything... zero. They said the wait staff, for example, were well paid and didn't require gratuities. I think the minimum wage in Australia is $17 an hour. How many of the illustrious business moguls on this site have employees making less than that... much less than that. In America the minimum wage is $7.25.

I guess there's a fine line between generosity and arrogance huh? As with anything in life the better you take of someone the better they take of you. If it's a one off then I would go with the "standard" and maybe a little more as long as it went ok whether it's a caddie or anything else. Restaurants that I go to frequently I over tip because I get taken care of. There aren't caddies where I play but when I take one as a guest I believe how I compensate the caddie and or any other service help has an effect on my host. If the host says to me "the guy was terrible so give him X" that's fine with me. Again culturally there is a huge difference between European customs versus U.S. customs. One thing I can tell you for sure is that when I was in the caddie yard a long time ago certain loops were disdained and guys would knock each other down to get out of the area so as not to get picked. More than anything the disdain resulted from getting shorted on the fee and those members might as well as had a scarlet letter(C for Cheapskate)on their polo instead of the Izod alligator. To each his own guys.