Biarritz holes

[Nigel Islam]

So I was reading "Scotland's Gift," and became a little puzzled by how CBM described the Biarritz hole:


"210 yards. Suggested by the 12th Biarritz, making sharp hog back in middle of course. Stop 80 yards from hole bunkered to the right of green and good low ground to the left of plateau green."


Am I just reading this wrong? Or is this somewhat different from my beloved yet somewhat non-functional Biarritz template?

[John Kavanaugh]

The Biarritz at North Berwick has very little in common with the one built by CBM at St. Louis CC. It feels like CBM felt the need to dumb it down for America.

[Nigel Islam]

The Biarritz at North Berwick has very little in common with the one built by CBM at St. Louis CC. It feels like CBM felt the need to dumb it down for America.

Interesting you bring up SLCC. Of all the Biarritz holes I've played SLCC and Country Club of Charleston are the least symmetric. I guess more than anything the lack of symmetry in CBM's description is what struck me as different.

[Sven Nilsen]

The Biarritz at North Berwick has very little in common with the one built by CBM at St. Louis CC. It feels like CBM felt the need to dumb it down for America.

Since the quote above clearly notes CBM's inspiration was a hole at Biarritz, why would you think his template had anything to do with the hole at North Berwick?

[John Kavanaugh]

To borrow a quote from the North Miami Police Department..."I don't know."

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Here's a couple looks at St. Louis' - number 2. I'm no Jon Cavalier but hopefully this provides some perspective...

[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:


The look of the MacRaynor Biarritz holes seems to have been made much more symmetrical over time, but there are a few key elements that remain constant.


1.  A long tee shot that would result in the ball running out (think about trying to hit a 210 yard shot back then).


2.  A hogsback feature for the ball to bounce and roll over which would deflect an offline shot away from the green.


3.  Trouble on both sides (whether in the form of bunkers or low lying ground) and often trouble long.


Sometimes there was a forced carry over trouble (leading to the confusion as to the influence of the Biarritz Chasm Hole), and sometimes there was a cross bunker that had to be carried before reaching the hogsback feature.


The modern game has made the hole obsolete in one key way, which is that many players are now capable of flying to and holding the green.  No one was doing this when CBM designed the hole. 


The Biarritz's are just a few of the many holes whose original intent has been altered due to changes in how the game evolved.  There are thousands of holes built in the first half of the century that suffered the same fate, but its easier to single out a template that was repeated on many courses as opposed to one-off originals.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel:


The look of the MacRaynor Biarritz holes seems to have been made much more symmetrical over time, but there are a few key elements that remain constant.


1.  A long tee shot that would result in the ball running out (think about trying to hit a 210 yard shot back then).


2.  A hogsback feature for the ball to bounce and roll over which would deflect an offline shot away from the green.


3.  Trouble on both sides (whether in the form of bunkers or low lying ground) and often trouble long.


Sometimes there was a forced carry over trouble (leading to the confusion as to the influence of the Biarritz Chasm Hole), and sometimes there was a cross bunker that had to be carried before reaching the hogsback feature.


The modern game has made the hole obsolete in one key way, which is that many players are now capable of flying to and holding the green.  No one was doing this when CBM designed the hole. 


The Biarritz's are just a few of the many holes whose original intent has been altered due to changes in how the game evolved.  There are thousands of holes built in the first half of the century that suffered the same fate, but its easier to single out a template that was repeated on many courses as opposed to one-off originals.


Sven

I think the bunkers down both sides is really what I'm referring to. Basically at some point in time between when CBM penned that statement and Piping Rock he decided bunkers needed to go down both sides. Or Raynor did. This is not a feature that was altered from an addition, If anything these bunkers have been removed as courses have been altered.

[Joe Bausch]

The Banks course at Forsgate (Monroe Township, NJ) has a pretty good Biarritz, the 17th:

[Nigel Islam]

So I just looked at the date CBM wrote Scotland's gift and it was in 1926 or long after he had stopped designing courses. Perhaps he had changed his own mind on the Biarritz concept?


Sven,  I'm not sure I would describe the part before the swale on a Biarritz a "hogs back" but maybe it's just semantics.

[Tom_Doak]

Nigel:


I think the Biarritz became more formal and symmetrical as Macdonald gradually handed over the work to Raynor.  Raynor never visited France (or Scotland!), and the National Golf Links (where Macdonald explained most of his concepts) doesn't have a Biarritz hole, so he had less idea what C.B. was looking for on that hole in particular.  And, to be honest, I'm not sure Macdonald even knew exactly what he wanted.  At most, he saw the original hole in Biarritz that gave him the idea once or twice.


P.S.  Some of Macdonald's 1926 book is reprints of articles he'd written earlier ... including his description of the template holes.

[Michael Whitaker]

Does a hole have to be a par three to be considered a "Biarritz" or is it just the approach and greensite configuration that makes that determination?


I have played 3's, 4's and 5's that end in a Biarritz type green complex.

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel:


I think the Biarritz became more formal and symmetrical as Macdonald gradually handed over the work to Raynor.  Raynor never visited France (or Scotland!), and the National Golf Links (where Macdonald explained most of his concepts) doesn't have a Biarritz hole, so he had less idea what C.B. was looking for on that hole in particular.  And, to be honest, I'm not sure Macdonald even knew exactly what he wanted.  At most, he saw the original hole in Biarritz that gave him the idea once or twice.


P.S.  Some of Macdonald's 1926 book is reprints of articles he'd written earlier ... including his description of the template holes.

I agree with the statement that he wasn't sure. I just remember the thread a couple years ago about whether he intended the hole to be over a chasm or have the swale. I suspect his ideas kind of morphed into what he built at Piping Rock. Also since he kind of dropped out of the Piping Rock work that could suggest the fact Raynor (and Banks) possibly built ALL of the biarritzs with mere guidance from CBM.

[Sven Nilsen]

Michael:

If you think of the templates in terms of the particular shots CBM was asking the golfer to hit, then the Biarritz only really applies to a par 3.

It could work on a long par 4, but the chances a player would end up having their approach lined up to the axis of the green are pretty poor, unlike on a par 3 where the teeing ground dictates not only the proper angle, but also the proper distance to allow the features to work the way they should.

Sven

[Sean_A]

Sven


I beg to differ.  I think the Biarritz would probably work better as a short par 4.  Guys could play for position or have a lash and see what gives.  Personally, I dislike the Biarritz concept as a par 3.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sven:


Have you ever been to Mid Ocean Club?


I suspect the 15th hole there (a short par-5) is more like the original Biarritz concept, from France, than the 230-yard 13th which is the "classic" symmetrical Biarritz par-3.  On 15, you hit your second shot across a road, and over a crowned mound in front of the green, which is low in front and rises up to a shallow back tier.

[Sven Nilsen]

I agree with the statement that he wasn't sure. I just remember the thread a couple years ago about whether he intended the hole to be over a chasm or have the swale. I suspect his ideas kind of
morphed into what he built at Piping Rock. Also since he kind of dropped out of the Piping Rock work that could suggest the fact Raynor (and Banks) possibly built ALL of the biarritzs with mere guidance from CBM.

First, if there was anyone in the history of early American golf who suffered from a lack of conviction, it wasn't CBM.

Second, I don't think you quite grasped the chasm/swale distinctions from the old thread.  The question wasn't whether he intended for one over the other, it had to do with what hole served as the inspiration for the concept.  The thought that came out of that thread was that the hole had nothing to do with the famous Chasm Hole at Biarritz, which was gone by the time CBM visited, and was based on features on a short par 4 that he believed could be used on a par 3.

Before we go speculating as to CBM's involvement with the actual Biarritz holes that were built, you might want to delve a bit deeper into those courses were his activity was greater than that at Piping Rock. 

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:


Have you ever been to Mid Ocean Club?


I suspect the 15th hole there (a short par-5) is more like the original Biarritz concept, from France, than the 230-yard 13th which is the "classic" symmetrical Biarritz par-3.  On 15, you hit your second shot across a road, and over a crowned mound in front of the green, which is low in front and rises up to a shallow back tier.

Tom:

Any idea how that hole played when Mid Ocean was first built?  Was it a reachable par 5, or was the green predominantly reached on the 3rd shot with a shorter club? 

CBM was pretty specific on two things, the length of the shot required (with the inherent need to judge how far the ball would roll out) and the punishment for shots that went offline.

In any case, there's a much more involved conversation lurking here as to the changes in the way holes were and are now played, and how certain features have either become obsolete or morphed to present a new challenge.

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Sven,


On page 31 of The West Links and Tantallon Golf Club 1853-2013, The romance of links golf at North Berwick, it is purported that North Berwick is the home of the original Biarritz. According to the book Tom Dunn built the 16th green at North Berwick before he went to Biarritz to work were he built similar greens. I guess that is where I became confused.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven


I beg to differ.  I think the Biarritz would probably work better as a short par 4.  Guys could play for position or have a lash and see what gives.  Personally, I dislike the Biarritz concept as a par 3.


Ciao

Sean:


That's fine, but now you've completely gotten away from the type of shot CBM was looking to test.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


On page 31 of The West Links and Tantallon Golf Club 1853-2013, The romance of links golf at North Berwick, it is purported that North Berwick is the home of the original Biarritz. According to the book Tom Dunn built the 16th green at North Berwick before he went to Biarritz to work were he built similar greens. I guess that is where I became confused.

John:


There wasn't a "Biarritz green" like we think about it (two portions divided by a swale), and as you saw at North Berwick, at Biarritz.


There was, however, a short par 4 with a hogsback feature short of the green.  This is what became the model for the Biarritz par 3 template.


Suffice it to say, you've been suckered in by later day lore.


Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Sven,


So you are saying the book and the good people at North Berwick are wrong and North Berwick does not have the original Biarritz?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


So you are saying the book and the good people at North Berwick are wrong and North Berwick does not have the original Biarritz?

Yes, that is what I am saying. 


Its not the only book that muddles the history of the Biarritz template.  Bahto mistakenly thought the hole was based on the Chasm Hole at Biarritz, which was not the case.


If you want to delve into it further, here's a fairly enlightening 13 page thread on the topic (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html).


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

So I was reading "Scotland's Gift," and became a little puzzled by how CBM described the Biarritz hole:


"210 yards. Suggested by the 12th Biarritz, making sharp hog back in middle of course. Stop 80 yards from hole bunkered to the right of green and good low ground to the left of plateau green."


Am I just reading this wrong? Or is this somewhat different from my beloved yet somewhat non-functional Biarritz template?

Nigel:

To backtrack for a second, the original description of the concept first appeared in 1906.  In those descriptions, the hogsback is noted as stopping 30 yards short of the green, not 80. 

As for the low-lying ground to the left of the green, it appears from this 1913 photo of the Biarritz at Piping Rock that CBM and/or Raynor did adhere to the earlier descriptions in their first attempt.  It is possible that they could not always find an ideal site for the green on the property they were working with, and made the economical decision to replace low lying ground with greenside bunkers.



I'm also curious as to where you gathered that CBM removed himself from the Piping Rock project.  There are reports in 1914 of him revisiting the course to perfect the bunkering scheme.  Not something you'd expect from someone that had "dropped out" of the work.

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Sven,


So you are saying the book and the good people at North Berwick are wrong and North Berwick does not have the original Biarritz?

Yes, that is what I am saying. 


Its not the only book that muddles the history of the Biarritz template.  Bahto mistakenly thought the hole was based on the Chasm Hole at Biarritz, which was not the case.


If you want to delve into it further, here's a fairly enlightening 13 page thread on the topic (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html).


Sven

Ok I read that thread and come away thinking that the original Biarritz is at North Berwick. The timeline makes perfect sense. I would suggest someone contact Douglas Seaton and discuss his findings.