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Mark Pearce

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Marbella
« on: July 25, 2016, 04:37:50 PM »
A group of us are planning golf trip to Spain later this year.  What courses around Marbella are worth playing?
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Marbella
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2016, 05:21:20 PM »
Mark,


A couple of threads from a trip I made to that area last January -


San Roque New, which is a bit pricey, but is distinctly nice and very walkable -http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60454.msg1432068.html#msg1432068


and the very different, great fun on a buggy (but impossible on foot) and much better golf than it first seems, and is at a lower price point as well, Calanova - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60409.msg1430277.html#msg1430277


Have fun and report back.


Atb
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 05:23:16 PM by Thomas Dai »

Terry Lavin

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Re: Marbella
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2016, 06:19:51 PM »
Everything in and around Marbella is worth experiencing. One of the greatest places I've visited (for the Ryder Cup). 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Charles Lund

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Re: Marbella
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 07:35:21 PM »
Valderrama, Sotogrande, La Reserva de Sotogrande, Finca Cortesin.

They are a bit of a drive from Marbella.  Lodging was reasonable when I was there in October of 2011.

Charles Lund

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Marbella
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2016, 04:40:30 AM »
A group of us are planning golf trip to Spain later this year.  What courses around Marbella are worth playing?
None really Mark. The courses are more about enjoying the weather, company, a beer and buggy (they are too hilly to walk). best ones are near Gibralta. Valderamma, Sotogrande, La Reserva....all expensive.
Santana & Rio Real (are walkable), La Cala (Europa) not too bad. Brisas and Aloha are not the worst but hard to get on.
Chapparell, Cabopino are getting near the bottom end.


The land is just too hilly to get anything any good at Marbella and to the East.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2016, 05:05:41 AM »
A group of us are planning golf trip to Spain later this year.  What courses around Marbella are worth playing?
None really Mark. The courses are more about enjoying the weather, company, a beer and buggy (they are too hilly to walk). best ones are near Gibralta. Valderamma, Sotogrande, La Reserva....all expensive.
Santana & Rio Real (are walkable), La Cala (Europa) not too bad. Brisas and Aloha are not the worst but hard to get on.
Chapparell, Cabopino are getting near the bottom end.


The land is just too hilly to get anything any good at Marbella and to the East.


Rio Real was the last course my dad played before he died five years ago. A couple of weeks before the stroke that killed him, he'd been out in Spain for a week's golf with some friends. Not quite sure where they'd played earlier in the week, but Dad was so appalled at the rubbishy cartball he had insisted that for their last round they go somewhere they could walk!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2016, 06:35:55 AM »
As others have said, the better courses tend to be down towards Gibraltar. Of those San Roque is OK if a little tired last ime I played it, while San Roque New is by one of the Dye boys and very tight with a lot of trees encroaching on shots. That's not to say it's bad, just tight.


Of the others, I enjoyed La Reserva and Valle de Romano. Closer to the Port, I'd suggest that Santana is the pick of the bunch. Going the other way Torrequebrada isn't a bad layout but needs money spent on it.


Niall

Greg Gilson

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Re: Marbella
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2016, 07:30:48 AM »
I have little new to add except that I believe this region may represent the world's worst value per $ (or Euro or GBP) GCA wise - with the big V being the obvious but not only example.

The beer & the food & the weather are a different matter but, personally,  I would not be going back to the Marbella region for the golf.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Marbella
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2016, 07:44:51 AM »
I have little new to add except that I believe this region may represent the world's worst value per $ (or Euro or GBP) GCA wise - with the big V being the obvious but not only example.
The beer & the food & the weather are a different matter but, personally,  I would not be going back to the Marbella region for the golf.


I go along with this. The price points are pretty steep in relation to the quality of the golf avaliable. And some of the rounds may well take a looong time, and trying hard not to be golf-snobbish, but the standard of play/etiquette by others on the course may well leave a lot to be desired and could be frustrating. Considerably better value for your £€$ in relation to GCA elsewhere.


Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2016, 08:10:55 AM »
I've a good idea where Mark is going to be staying and I'd suggest that golf isn't the primary reason for the trip  ;D


Niall

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2016, 09:03:45 AM »
Playing in the Marbella area, like the Algarve in Portugal, reminded me of Palm Springs, CA.


Very average golf, great weather, cart-balling everywhere and I knew I was not there primarily to play golf....

Mark Pearce

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Re: Marbella
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2016, 04:55:23 PM »
I've a good idea where Mark is going to be staying and I'd suggest that golf isn't the primary reason for the trip  ;D


Niall
Well, it sort of is......


Valderama and Finca are on our list.  We know there isn't great golf to be had but want the best of what there is.  My impression after one previous visit to Marbella and The Algarve is that Portugal offers far better golf.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Stephen Northrup

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 01:03:00 AM »
Valderrama was the only course I remember from a five-day trip several years ago. We didn't get on Sotogrande so I can't speak to that. Wonderful in every other way, but the golf is Arizona cartball.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2016, 03:43:48 AM »
Mark


From only one play I'd suggest Valderramma is definitely worth a play....whether it's worth the money is another matter. Finca, like Valle de Romano, La Reserva and Santana are Cabell Robinson designs. Even though Finca is the one that has held a pro tournament, I'd say it's the weakest of the set. Generally though his courses are set on better sites than you normally get on the Costa del Sol.


Another course near the Port that is worth playing is Los Naranjos which was designed by one of the Jones boys. I've also heard good things about the Marbella course but never played it. Note there are two Marbella courses, which one is the one to play I'm not sure (yes I know, very helpful !). And yes you get better golf on the Algarve.


Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2016, 04:40:15 AM »
I quite like Cortesin; Cabell does reliably decent work. But note it is about as unwalkable a course as you will ever see. Carts only.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2016, 08:21:40 AM »
Adam


I wouldn't disagree with any of that. A little quirk of Mr Robinsons seems to be to have the front of his green raised so as to at least partially obscure the rest of the green, something that gets old rather quickly. At La Reserva at least a lot of the greens were more at grade which suggested that there might have been another hand at work in the detail.


Niall

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2016, 09:26:59 AM »
Sotogrande is currently undergoing a renovation and has always been a favorite of mine.
Las Brisas has undergone a K Phillips renovation although I believe they are back at work on the front nine regrassing some holes.
For overall quality Valderrama and Finca stand out with La Reserva close behind
I never really liked San Roque Old but the New is fairly interesting and underplayed
As mentioned Cabell's work is the most consistent with Valle Romano, La Cala and Santana being good examples. I've worked on numerous courses with Cabell and he does all his work in the dirt and has no associates just a couple of brothers who do his project management. I believe to this day he doesn't own a mobile phone!
In golf valley Aloha, Los Naranjos and La Quinta are so so courses


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2016, 10:04:29 AM »
Ben


Many thanks for the input. When you say he does all his work in the dirt, is he around to dictate how he wants the greens to be contoured or does he give a general idea and leave it up to the shaper ? It just seems to me that there is a different hand at work in some of the greens.


Niall

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2016, 08:45:38 AM »
Niall,
I worked with Cabell on Santana and Mijas Olivos with Marbegolf doing the construction ( they also did Valle Romano and La Cala) Cabell was on site frequently but he trusted Marbegolf to do the work in his style. Finca Cortesin and Las Colinas de Campoamor (where I also worked ) were project managed by one of his team but again with frequent visits as his base is Mijas on the Costa.
As to La Reserva I'm unsure as to who built it or project managed but I'm sure it's only Cabells hand but I'll try and find out more.
Personally with a bit of bias obviously I think Cabell does really good work on difficult sites
As a Greenkeeper though his wiggly bunker lines although interesting are a nightmare to maintain

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2016, 10:04:53 AM »
I've known Cabell for 25 years, and he is one of the most underrated architects in the business.

It's a shame to go to Andalucia and drink beer while there are so many fine Rioja wines available.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2016, 10:50:57 AM »
Plenty of fine non-Rioja wines available too!


That said, there's a time for vino tinto and a time for cerveza. When it's 35C, it's the latter  :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Marbella
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2016, 07:45:17 PM »
I am seeing some expansion of discussion here.

I played about 10 rounds in this area on my trip in 2011.

I have played a lot of courses in Southern California with significant elevation changes and courses in the Pacific Northwest with elevation changes and an abundance of trees.  Finca Cortesin reminded me of an exaggerated version some of the sites in Southern California such as Maderas Golf Club, The Crosby Club, or Golf Club of California.  I was glad to play it once but would be unlikely to return to the course if I went back to the atea.

Valderrama was about 300 euros.  I played it about three weeks before a European Tour event, won by Sergio Garcia and I followed one round of the event.  It included many of the design features of Robert Trent Jones Sr. courses I have played in North America.  Sprawling,  lower growing oaks with large canopies reduce the area of fairways from which greens are accessible and require careful placement of tee shots.  Rough had grown in long to prepare for the tournament and fairways were narrowed.  It had lots of striking elevation changes but not to to the scale of Finca Cortesin. I think Valderrama was the most beautiful very
difficult course I have ever played.

Sotogrande had a lot of the design features of Valderrama and some of the beauty and less of the difficulty for about half the price.  I would happily play it again if I returned to the area.

I considered myself fortunate to be able to play both of these RTJ courses.

La Reserva had a back nine that had elevation changes which were less severe than FInca Cortesin.  I would call the front nine hilly but less so than the back nine.  I played it twice.  The cost was about 3/4 the cost of Sotogrande.   The Cabell Robinson design had some of the look and feel of what I like about RTJ designs.   I really enjoyed the hilliness of the back nine and the tree lined fairways on many of the holes.  The tee shot on number 15 is one of the most memorable tee shots I have had to hit.  I looked forward to  my return a few days later to play the hole again.  I also enjoyed the uphill par five of the same nine, along with 12 and 13.  The front nine was quite enjoyable and challenging and provided a prolonged introduction to the course but the back nine was my favorite of the two.  It was a difficult walk but I did walk it twice.

After reading this thread,  the other day, I went to sleep at night and dreamed I was playing the back nine at La Reserva.

San Roque Old was the first course I played.   It had many challenging holes,  less severe than Pete Dye courses in California in the desert.  It was designed by a Dye family member I think, with collaboration from Seve Ballesteros.  A par three had Seve's tee and a monument on the front nine.  The course had beautiful vistas of the Mediterranean.  I would play it again and liked it better than the other San Roque course.

There was a local muni course called Rancho Canada.  The back nine was built by Robert Trent Jones for the employees of other clubs.   The course at the time of a group of some of the best junior players in Spain.  Alvaro Quiros learned to play there.   The back nine was not well maintained but had some of the same distinctive elements as other RTJ courses.  I enjoyed my time playing there.  The employees I spoke with at other courses beamed when I expressed my fondness for what was their club.

I stayed at Club Maritimo de Sotogrande and could see The Rock of Gibraltar.  I did one day trip to Ronda, an old town in the hills frequented by Ernest Hemingway for many years.  It is one of several towns called the white towns due to stuckoed white dwellings built on cliffs.

There was another course,  then called Arcos Gardens, near Arcos de la Frontera where I stayed and played twice on my way to Portugal.  The course was built by Landmark and was quite hilly with olive groves on nearby hillsides and Arcos de la Frontera visible in the distance.  It would be too far for a day trip from Marbella.

I think this is a good area to travel to for someone interested in seeing Robert Trent Jones courses.   

Charles Lund