What's the most difficult shot for a low-hcp/pro to play and how would you design......

[Jeff_Brauer]

"Tour pros hate 250-yard par threes."

Tim G. -

Some how I am thinking all golfers hate 250-yard (or even 225-yard) par threes.

DT

I recall designing a long par 3, and debating the length.  A good player connected with the project suggested "either 295 or 280 to the front edge" because that is exactly how long he carried driver and 3 wood.......talk about self serving.  They don't want to be in between clubs.  Well, if being in between clubs bothers them all to that extent, I figure that might be the way to go, purposely, although hard to control on other than par 3.

Pros always used to say the short, half wedge was hard.  Pelz proved it statistically was, but then spurred the invention of so many gap wedges that basically, nearly every shot is a 3/4 to full swing now, maybe with a partial choke down.  Tech has made the short in between shot easier for them.

Have related the story about Tripp Davis and Justin Leonard touting the long, 45 degree angle greens for reasons Pat mentions - you must combine distance and angle perfectly to hit the bow tie pasta green.  Of course, that is even harder for the average Joe.  They also build 3-4 compartments in every green, separated by small rise or dip, the theory being that once the ball leaves the putter face, its beyond the putters control, and the hardest to judge speed.  TD and others have touted the subtle change of slope mid putt, as well, in a variety of forms, as a challenging feature.

Of course, there are some potentially unfair use of physics to make shots hard - uphill shots with long irons off downhill lies, maybe downwind to boot, into a shallow green to make it too hard to hold.  That theory presumes the average golfer is hitting a wedge into that same green on their third.  Downwind holes over water......Crosswind shots requiring them to aim over water, etc.

And to stop the really, really straight drivers....the Mohawk fairway cut with a strip of rough right down the middle.  Average guys would never hit that!

[Pat Burke]

One of the most effective ways to challenge tour pros is to have shallow greens set on Angles.


The new equipment is great,mbut players hitting balls insane distances, also have bigger gaps in clubs.  Shallow greens with difficult recovers put a premium on distance control which may be the biggest separator among the best players.


2 cents worth

Pat is answering the question well, but it's the wrong question for a designer, really.  Most of the prescriptions voiced here would result in a course that's neither fun or playable for amateurs, but this suggestion was the one that most exaggerates the gap between pros and amateurs.


In my world, we should be trying to MINIMIZE the gap between pros and amateurs, because it's become so large. That will also make the better players work harder to cash in on their superior skill.


The way to minimize the gap is to try and design holes that reward low-trajectory shots, as opposed to high-trajectory.  Low-trajectory shots are easy for a certain set of amateurs to hit, because it's all they have ... but they are a very hard shot for pros whose swing speed naturally produces a higher ball flight.


It is not easy to build holes that reward low-trajectory shots, but it can be done.  Greens like the 11th, 12th and 17th at St. Andrews are great examples.

Tom thanks, I was trying to answer the question regarding the shots that challenger our pros.  Like your reply Re st andrews greens

[Tom_Doak]

Camargo (Raynor) hosts the US Am qualifier every year.  The course is maybe 6600 yards and routinely -2 to -3 qualifies.  You can hit every fairway at Camargo and Lookout and still score like crap, the greens are that tough to learn.  You rarely fire at pins, rather over time, you learn the angles.

Joe:


I've been the consultant to Camargo for thirty years, and I love the course.  However, hosting a field of nervous amateurs for one day is VERY different than hosting the Tour for a 72-hole event.  I shudder to think what the winning score of a 72-hole event would be at Camargo, and I guarantee you, the "angles" wouldn't be much defense.

[Carl Rogers]

Dormie ... almost every green accepts the low trajectory shot there as there are very few fronting bunkers and the greens fit into the approaches very gently.  I have yet to play with my friend Scott, who is about 4-6 shots better than I, there but I would think the aggressive low handicapper would learn quickly that flying the ball hard a the hole won't work there.  In fact on many holes, no. 4 comes to mind. that to hold the green you must aim away from the green and let the ball bounce.