Can Hole Sequence Affect the Quality of a Course?

[Jerry Kluger]

In watching the PGA tour this week at Glen Abbey I thought that the hole sequence was rather unusual, i.e., 3 par 5s in the last 6 holes, and wondered if this affects one's view concerning the overall quality of the course.  It clearly played a role in how the course was at the professional level and I would imagine that in the typical weekend golfer's nassau it could have an affect.  But would it play a role in how you would evaluate a course?  It would seem to me that in nearly all cases routing would not mandate that sequence although I have to admit that I have no idea if the land and natural features forced that sequence.  From a purely personal point of view as not a really long hitter, I would have concerns that in my weekend game against a longer hitter, that I better be in good shape in the match before we get to those holes.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have always believed that Pacific Dunes is hurt by the 4 par 3's in the final nine. http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/golf/golf-courses/pacific-dunes

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a fine discussion on how this issue at Pacific Dunes could have been fixed. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22740.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

Here is a fine discussion on how this issue at Pacific Dunes could have been
fixed. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22740.0.html

"Fixed" is highly subjective, but of course, so is this whole topic.  Much of it is personal preference as to flow.  Some people think championship courses should finish a certain way, even though the best of them can be quite different. 

But Pacific Dunes is a resort course for people to have fun on, so why would it finish the same way?  We chose the sequence based on how it felt to walk around, and where the oceanfront holes came in sequence.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jerry,

Forgetting PD for a moment, my phrase has always been "all things being equal....."I prefer a course that is fairly well balanced among 3, 4 and 5 par holes.  But, things are not always (actually rarely are) equal. 

Robert Bruce Harris and a few others wrote about "perfect par balance" whereby no two holes, save maybe 9 and 10, had the same par.  A few of his disciples practiced it fully, sometimes, at the expense of good holes, to achieve 4-5-4-3-4-5-4-3-4 and back nine of the same. Most had small variations when the land dictated.  Augusta has it on the front nine, albeit 6 is a 3 and 8 is a par 5.

18 good holes trump sequence, IMHO. One of my biggest sequence concerns when routing is avoiding 3-5 hard par 4 holes in a row.  I admit, I accept back to back par 5 holes more easily than back to back par 3 holes, but for the most part, other sequences are fair game, if the holes are good. 

I presume spectacular sites lend themselves to odd hole par sequences to take best advantage of the land.

When Opryland hosted a senior event, they renumbered the holes with consecutive par 3's for better gallery flow.  Which illustrates that for different courses, certain demands may alter the sequence and be more important to the Owner than the "best" playing sequence for good players.   Case in point, most muni courses need fairly long holes to get golfers out on the course (and past the rain check period) and like the short reachable par 5 holes and par 3 holes as far back as possible, since they speed play, etc.

[Thomas Dai]

I found a scorecard for Glen Abbey, although it could be out of date, but on it the 'par-5's' from the back black tees are stated as being 502, 527, 558, 516 and 524 yds. These are not genuine par-5's for male pro's, they are faux par-5's. They should be par-4's and thus par for 18-holes should be 68 so the hole sequence becomes of less relevance.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Am I the only one when playing a shotgun start hopes and prays to start on #1? Funny thing, at Victoria National we occasionally start on the 10th and it screws up our game. The 9th hole is a terrible 18th in that it is the easiest hole on the course but still the number 5 handicap because it is a par 5. I get killed every time I give stroke on that hole. Sequence is everything.

[Sean_A]

I am with JakaB...sequence matters...just try playing courses out of sequence...especially if hills are involved and one has to do more climbing at the end of the round rather than the start because he played the holes out of sequence.  If a feeling of disconnect can happen in these instances, so too on courses where one starts on #1.  I am not saying there is always a means to avoid less than ideal sequencing.  I see issues with sequencing quite a bit in the effort to get returning 9s to the house.  There are always tradeoffs.  For instance, I would rather there be a long and a short loop returning back to the house because it can provide a more interesting choice for the golfer who has time to only play one loop or the other.  However, I understand the commercial aspects of 9 hole loops.  So sequencing can also be subject to who the clientele will be.  There are a lot of variables in play and as Tom suggests, much of the time its a matter of preference.   


Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

My question is simply whether the sequence influences how you view a course.  Presuming that we have 18 really good holes would you think less of the course because of the sequence of holes.  I think that Pacific Dunes is a perfect example of a course where the sequence is not typical but the quality of the holes is so good that the course is universally viewed as outstanding.  But as Tom points out it is a resort course and it was essential that they maximize holes on the ocean.  In other cases such as Glen Abbey the answer is more difficult where we are dealing with par 5s on a parkland course. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hole sequence has a definite effect on the overall quality of a course. Flow, rhythm and pacing.

That doesn't necessarily mean balance in terms of par though.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jaka,

I wonder how many architects could even manage to think about sequence in terms of a shotgun?  Seems impossible, if you want a mix of hard and easy holes, etc., then someone has to start on the hard one, and that is the luck of the draw, I guess.

I have heard the PGA Tour favoring courses with similar starts in par and length, say 4-5-4, 400-550-370 or whatever, on 1-3 and 10-12, so where there are double starts on tournaments, all players have approximately the same chance to get off to a good start, but never heard anyone consider a full shot gun.  What would you do?  All par 4 holes of 400 Yards?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


I don't believe you can design for a shotgun start but I have seen politics at play on who starts where. It has and always will pay to support your local pro.

[Peter Pallotta]

"Listen: I don't care where you start the rest of those bastards, but just make sure that Kavanaugh starts on #1". And put an extra bottle of water in his cart, he tends to dehydrate quite quickly"

[Tom_Doak]

There is no better case study for this than Banff Springs.


Stanley Thompson's original first tee is right underneath the hotel, hitting from high up across the Spray River, and his 18th green is at the confluence of the Bow and Spray rivers, looking up to the hotel and the mountains.


When the owners built a third nine holes, they built a pro shop out in the middle of the course where the new nine had to start, and re-numbered the main course to start and end there.  So, Thompson's great finishing hole is now the 14th ... after which you've got to climb (or ride) a long way and 50 feet uphill to get to the 15th (formerly 1st) tee ... and then play what were meant to be the starting holes as your last four.  You could not destroy the intended flow of a course more thoroughly if you tried.


My guess is that change keeps Banff Springs out of the top 100 courses in the world, because they gave the panelists a reason to vote against it.  But the change does not keep it from being a great course ... after all, you're still playing the same 18 holes.  It's just not all it could be.

[Thomas Dai]

Swopping the 9's around as per ANGC?
Atb

[Sam Kestin]

Couldn't agree more with Thomas Dai. The Masters would be half of the tournament that it is today if the nines were reversed.


I think hole sequence is a hugely under-appreciated aspect of course design. Playing a golf course is an experience to me--like going to a play or a movie. Emotionally, how I feel about the experience throughout the course of it matters a great deal. If the exhilaration of playing the best holes on the property early burns off well before I am off the course--I am likely to leave the course without the great holes early leaving as favorable an impression as they otherwise might have. Conversely, if it builds to a dramatic conclusion where I walk off the course on the highest high about it that I have felt all day--well I am certain to leave with a much more favorable impression.


Spyglass Hill would feel like a totally different golf course if the crescendo came at the end by looping back to the five holes down by the Pacific--as opposed to running through the most unique aspects of the golf course in the first five holes.

[mike_beene]

If I were building a course and did not want the nines reversed in the future, if there was a way to make either 9 or 10 a par 3 perhaps they would leave it alone.

[Dan Herrmann]

Sequence is of paramount importance.   The course should welcome the golfer into the round with a friendly handshake (first hole) and pull him into its grip throughout the round.   The 18th should be a denouement of sorts that delivers the golfer back to the real world.


Ideally, a golfer loses him/herself throughout the journey that a well executed design provides.

[Jim_Coleman]

   It seems some are confusing "sequence" with "routing."  If all sequence is is the order in which you play the holes, then I really don't care about the order as long as the holes are great.  Now, if sequence is about having to walk long distances to get from hole to hole when a different sequence would make the walk more pleasant, then sequence matters.  Otherwise, if the holes at Pine Valley happen to be arranged with the first six holes being par 3,3,3,3,5,5, and I still got to play the same holes that are there today, let me know when I tee off.