What are the qualities of the best hilly, parkland courses?

[mike_malone]

Are trees part of the appeal?
What is the role of bunkers?
How important is the routing?
What of blindness?

[Sean_A]

Are trees part of the appeal?

Depends on the site, but usually for me, trees should be minimal so as to showcase the land's interior and/or exterior views and showcase the specimen trees. 

What is the role of bunkers?

Less important than on flat sites, but sometimes saving bunkers are prudent. 

How important is the routing?

I think this is very important to minimize the difficulty of the walk and attack hills from different angles while still letting the golfer know he is playing a hilly course.  The routing should reflect the terrain in that hills both make shots easier and more difficult.  The routing should also seek out relatively flat land if at all possible.   Finally, any hilly site should yield a couple of outstanding and unusual holes....the walk has to be repaid with more than good, steady golf...I can get good steady golf on flat land.

What of blindness?

Very difficult to avoid if the routing truly reflects the terrain.  This doesn't have to be a negative if the there is ample space to accommodate blind shots.

I think Roaring Gap as a parkland course reflects much of the above.  Two others which I think are very good aren't really parkland courses.

Ciao 

[John Connolly]

The trees should be used to highlight the interesting, in this case "hilly," terrain. They should not overwhelm it. Only specimen trees should be present- no understory, bushy, or multi-stem varieties.  These specimen trees should draw the golfer's attention when they visually survey the golfscape and should not overpower the vista. Every one of these trees should justify its existence.


The routing should take advantage of the hilly terrain, but not by continually going up and down the hills - perhaps along the sides. Fairways with a reverse cant are very interesting.


Blind shots would seem inevitable on hilly terrain - but like most ODG's say - try to keep them at a minimum (whatever that is).


As for bunkers ... just not behind or in front of the trees. Otherwise, that one is tricky. Fewer is probably better than more.

[mike_malone]

As a Flynn fan I admire his wish to use the ridge rather than just go up and down the hill.
I see him using the most abrupt hills for par threes.
Bunches of trees work for doglegs.
Bunkers in the fairway he suggests be fitted into the terrain. He wrote that the land is the best hazard.
So I feel he welcomed hilly terrain for a course.
He didn't fight the hills but used them.

[mike_malone]

Sean,
Your routing comments are among the best architectural comments I have read on this site.
I guess hilly sites test the routing skills better than flat terrain .

[mike_malone]

Creeks often arise in a hilly parkland course. I find that how they are used is another key to the greatness of the course.

[mike_malone]

A great hilly parkland course probably uses more natural features well than any other type of golf course.
Elevation change is unparalleled as a golf element.

[Ed Brzezowski]

A great hilly parkland course probably uses more natural features well than any other type of golf course.
Elevation change is unparalleled as a golf element.

sounds like a description of Rolling Green?

[Thomas Dai]

Are trees part of the appeal?
Depends on the site, but usually for me, trees should be minimal so as to showcase the land's interior and/or exterior views and showcase the specimen trees. 

Nicely put.


The views at parkland courses should be of the rest of the course and of the surrounding landscape. The views should not be of the trees themselves except in the case of outstanding specimin trees and then only on a limited basis.


Atb

[Jackson C]

Sean,

Are you thinking Royal Hague?

[Dan Herrmann]

I think courses like Lancaster and Rolling Green (and the other Flynns) do it best.


Conversely, I think Rees Jones blew it at Ledgerock.  This is certainly a tough piece of land, but I think he routed the course about 90 degrees off from what it should have been.  Especially the back 9.

[Thomas Dai]

Sean,
Are you thinking Royal Hague?

I suspect that one of the other two starts with the letter 'K' and ends with the letter 'n' and from it the Land of My Fathers is visible.


Atb

[Josh Stevens]

One issue that often pops up with hilly courses is that of the hill dictating the run of the ball rather than the player.

We have one hole at my club where we tee off over a rise that then falls away steeply down the hill, but also with a significant right to left camber.  Its a lovely looking hole, but the combo of down slope and side slope means that quite often balls end up in the same spot, regardless of the shot played.

This not only cause a problem with divots, but also to a degree removes some of the strategic intent of the green as it is all but impossible to get the ball to stay over the right side of the fairway.

[mike_malone]

Ed
The best parts of Concord reflect this as well.
I do not see Merion as a hilly parkland course by the way.

[mike_malone]

Josh
That's a good example of a weakness of a hilly course.
I played Deerfield in Delaware growing up ( it was Louviers then) . It had a few awkward holes that doglegged and went down the hill at the same time. I loved the course but saw these holes as weak.
Great hilly courses allow for visibility in doglegs. 

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Are you thinking Royal Hague?

I suspect that one of the other two starts with the letter 'K' and ends with the letter 'n' and from it the Land of My Fathers is visible.


Atb

Si, but it isn't really a parkland course.  In fact, it is hard to describe or categorize.  But one of the main reasons K......n is superb is because of angles.  The hills are used very well in this regard and the man-made elements accentuate this critical element of design. 


I think we also have to determine what "hilly" is.  There is low-lying hilly like Rolling Green, in which it is far easier to express what we want in a hilly property and then there is HILLY....where just trying to make the walk work is very difficult and a major handicap.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Sean,
Are you thinking Royal Hague?

I suspect that one of the other two starts with the letter 'K' and ends with the letter 'n' and from it the Land of My Fathers is visible.
Atb

Si, but it isn't really a parkland course.  In fact, it is hard to describe or categorize.  But one of the main reasons K......n is superb is because of angles.  The hills are used very well in this regard and the man-made elements accentuate this critical element of design. 

Agree that K isn't parkland. The routing, and as you say use of angles, is maybe it's best feature, it just flows so nicely. The spiral like routing is quite excellent as apart from the 1st and the walk from the 3rd green to 4th tee you hardly realise how hilly the property is. The mounding and grass bunkers are very fine too.


If it were nearer a major urban area it would most likely get more compliments than it does, although that would probably take away some of the charm.


Atb

[mike_malone]

Par threes are the heart of any course because everyone approaches the green from the same spot.

How the hills are used separates the great from the mundane.  I think blind greens are less appealing on par threes so this becomes a serious challenge for up hill holes.

[mike_malone]

Sean
A great hilly course must use the hills for challenge. If they are so steep that golf is virtually impossible than the greatness is limited.
Flynn had prime land for golf around Philadelphia with the hills in the suburbs. Philly Country, Manufacturer's, Huntingdon Valley, Rolling Green, Green Valley, Lehigh, and Lancaster are among the strongest portfolio of any parkland courses in the world by a single designer

[Jon Cavalier]

Apologies for the novice question so late into this discussion, but can someone give a concise description of what makes a course a parkland course?  Is it capable of being defined, or is it a Potter Stewart situation of simply knowing it when we see it?  And if we can't define it, what are some of your favorite courses that are unquestionably parkland?

[mike_malone]

Jon
I think of a parkland course as one that is routed through trees and up and down hills with possibly a creek running through it.

[Duncan Cheslett]

In the UK, a true parkland course is one laid out in the grounds of a grand house.  The major feature of parkland is small groups of majestic specimen trees. Self-seeding saplings and scrub are kept at bay by resident deer.


Examples would be Stoke Park and Knutsford GC, in the grounds of Tatton Park.



Unfortunately, pretty well any course which cannot be described as a links, heathland, headland, downland, or moorland course is now erroneously described as "parkland."


Many of these would actually be better called "Farmers' Field" courses.

[jeffwarne]

I played a tightly routed parkland course Wednesday that was heavily treed.
That said, no doubt the trees were managed and they had been properly limbed and underbrush was at a minimum
Such a joy to miss a fairway, yet easily find the ball.
At too many courses that have had "tree removal" because that's the thing to do, they have then planted native so that there's "something there".
Sucks the fun out of the game and promotes lyme disease-no thanks.

I could not imagine that course without the trees, and I welcomed the shade as the temperature was in the mid 90's.
The turf was excellent. While quite green, it was firm.


Duncan,
Could not  a "farmer's field" course eventually become a parkland when specimen both planted and native) trees mature?
Why doom it to simply a field when it could be so much more?

[Mark Pritchett]

At too many courses that have had "tree removal" because that's the thing to do, they have then planted native so that there's "something there".

Good point Jeff!


I would much rather have trees than native and be able to find a ball and have some type of recovery shot. 

[Thomas Dai]

In the UK, a true parkland course is one laid out in the grounds of a grand house. The major feature of parkland is small groups of majestic specimen trees. Self-seeding saplings and scrub are kept at bay by resident deer.

Nicely summerised Duncan.


I can picture one now...a big stately home with lawns and outbuildings, a walled garden with greenhouses and vegetables, ornamental gardens with hedges and statues, maybe a maze, a rock garden, an arboretum area, a folly on a hill in the distance, a lake with a small boathouse and a ha-ha to keep the grazing cattle, sheep etc off the lawns and ornamental gardens. Quintessential UK.


There was once a place along these lines not too far from me with a private course where the likes of Vardon had played exhibitions etc. Sadly the stately home burnt to the ground between the wars and I guess repair costs, upcoming conflicts and death duties put an end to it. It's now a country park owned by the local council. No course remains.


Atb