"The Agronomy At Castle Stuart Is Undoubtedly The Finest In GB&I"

[David_Tepper]

This and other interesting commentary from Lorne Smith at Fine Golf:

http://www.finegolf.co.uk/2016/07/19/sky-misses-the-story/

[Niall C]

I don't have the GMac quote in front of me but from memory he thought the course had been improved as a test since they had narrowed the fairways or something to that effect. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a comment on the design or indeed the agronomy but the set-up so don't really think he got indigestion eating any words. 


That said, Castle Stuart is certainly the best conditioned course I've played in Scotland.


Niall



 

[Andrew Simpson]

 I'd seriously doubt it is, perhaps Lorne Smith was reading the PR from CS and trying to get a freebie and based on Phil missing a putt at Troon.
 I was on the greens at CS mon-wed during the SO and there were greens where they certainly were not running true. We were hitting numerous putts and watched them wander and bobble, it was as if they had not reached full growth. It was obvious in some places which started the alarm bells and then on closer inspection we saw the movement.To me the condition was certainly not perfect on the greens and even the fairways were lacking.
 Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling them bad but they were certainly not as good as the article makes out.

[Stephen Northrup]

I played Castle Stuart the afternoon after the Scottish Open, and thought the greens ran very true, and a touch faster than other courses in the areas I played during the same time frame (e.g., RD, Nairn, Brora, Tain). I'm not in a position to speak to the whole of GB&I, but certainly the agronomy was at the top of the courses I played around Inverness.

[Mark Pearce]

Frankly I really don't care, and nor should any of us.  The race to perfect agronomy is potentially damaging to golf.  All I want is firm, reasonably fast, reasonably true greens.  I really don't see the point in nitpicking between those that achieve this goal.

[Jon Wiggett]

DT,


I too read this with interest. I was at CS over the SO as well and can say the greens were magnificent.


Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Lorne means 'most dominated by traditional fine grasses'. Not surprising really, given it was only seeded less than ten years ago. Renaissance, which has the same advantage, is pretty fab too

[Peter Pallotta]

Frankly I really don't care, and nor should any of us.  The race to perfect agronomy is potentially damaging to golf.  All I want is firm, reasonably fast, reasonably true greens.  I really don't see the point in nitpicking between those that achieve this goal.

Spot on, IMHO, on many levels.
Plus, the nitpicking always seems to  lead to hyberbole and to words like "undoubtedly"

[Andrew Simpson]

Frankly I really don't care, and nor should any of us.  The race to perfect agronomy is potentially damaging to golf.  All I want is firm, reasonably fast, reasonably true greens.  I really don't see the point in nitpicking between those that achieve this goal.

I'd go along with what you are saying as I'm not looking for snooker table smooth but when people are banding about descriptions like, the finest and magnificent, I'll say what I saw. Reading the article it was based on him watching it in the Media tent!
All i'm saying is that close up on some greens, notably 13 and 14 the aeration holes were still strongly evident. On those holes it was easily seen by eye there were low points and on some other greens though the holes were not noticeable the pattern could still be seen. Watching down the line on 8 foot putts to a tee there were very noticeable movements, some straightened but some could be an inch either side. Even watching on TV on sat and sun, putts would start bouncing after they had been rolling smoothly.
Perhaps the best some have seen in the Highlands this year but perfect and magnificent they certainly were not in my book.

[Sean_A]

Frankly I really don't care, and nor should any of us.  The race to perfect agronomy is potentially damaging to golf.  All I want is firm, reasonably fast, reasonably true greens.  I really don't see the point in nitpicking between those that achieve this goal.

Philosophically I care because I know fine grasses will make it easier and often cheaper to produce true rolling firm greens with some speed in year round conditions.  There are reasons why parkland courses aren't up to snuff on the greens side of the things adn when they are it is an expensive product, so there isn't much point in downplaying agronomy....it is extremely important for the golf I like to play on a year round basis. 


That said, Scotland is well north.  Getting to play on greens in top nick on any given day is a near miracle.  I usually hope for firm and true...if I get some speed its a mega bonus.  If I wanted only to play solely on quality greens in good nick, I wouldn't ever go to Scotland. 


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I am not so caught up in the whole trueness of roll and the entire thumpometer and stimpmeter bandwagon guys are just gadget nerds. The only thing that is really relevant from a golfers point of view is the consistency of result.


Sean, I am sorry you do not find any decent putting surfaces in Scotland, I have to say that I find the greens up here to be no different in quality across the board than anywhere else I have played from Europe, US, Australia or Asia.


Jon

[jeffwarne]

Frankly I really don't care, and nor should any of us.  The race to perfect agronomy is potentially damaging to golf.  All I want is firm, reasonably fast, reasonably true greens.  I really don't see the point in nitpicking between those that achieve this goal.

+10000000


and put so more eloquently than I would've.


People are beginning to forget golf (and other sports) are outdoor games
see the same crap in youth sports-artificial turf for fields-ick-perfect I guess if you live in the Bronx.


I thought Castle Stuart looked overly defined with odd grass lines on TV(for lack of a better word-it just looked modern-despite the faux old attempts....)
heavy sigh......


Amazing how one wants to blame a piece of poa for stopping a 62, but then we have to deal with the fallout of "strengthening" the courses because someone shot too low.


I can't remember a UK green in the last 20 years that wasn't just fine to putt on

[Ryan Coles]

Jon


Don't you think the STRI trueness meter is a good thing in that it takes the emphasis away from speed and instead measures quality?


I don't think anywhere in the UK is 100% reliable for greens, but as with most places, in Scotland you rarely encounter poor ones anywhere these days from May - October.


Lorne is talking one eyed rubbish when he blames poa for Mickelson missing a 62. Him and Henrik holed more than their share. I think Lorne is in danger of ranting on without much thought and his claims are becoming more and more far fetched. Anyone who was truly knowledgeable about sports turf wouldn't be such an absolutist.

[Tom_Doak]

I have great respect for the greenkeepers at Castle Stuart and all they do.  However, the last time I saw them both, The Renaissance Club was even better condition-wise.  The Renaissance Club has a roughly equal budget to Castle Stuart [of course I'm guessing there], but far less wear and tear from golfers due to it being a private club.


I do agree with those posts that the extreme expense of agronomic perfection is not something courses should be striving for. 

[Rees Milikin]

I have great respect for the greenkeepers at Castle Stuart and all they do.  However, the last time I saw them both, The Renaissance Club was even better condition-wise.  The Renaissance Club has a roughly equal budget to Castle Stuart [of course I'm guessing there], but far less wear and tear from golfers due to it being a private club.

I agree, a course being private will have far less wear and tear and in turn be better condition wise.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon


Don't you think the STRI trueness meter is a good thing in that it takes the emphasis away from speed and instead measures quality?


I don't think anywhere in the UK is 100% reliable for greens, but as with most places, in Scotland you rarely encounter poor ones anywhere these days from May - October.


Lorne is talking one eyed rubbish when he blames poa for Mickelson missing a 62. Him and Henrik holed more than their share. I think Lorne is in danger of ranting on without much thought and his claims are becoming more and more far fetched. Anyone who was truly knowledgeable about sports turf wouldn't be such an absolutist.

Ryan,


I do agree that the trueness meter is better for taking the emphasis away from speed but as a golfer I am most interested in how consistent the result of a put is in relation to where it ends up once it stops. I had always thought that greens that rolled without bobbling would also lead to consistency of finish but having tried this thoery out at multiple courses I had to note that smoothness of the roll is not a major factor in the ball always following the same line nor rolling out the same distance. STRI and golf would be better focusing on where the ball finished and less on how it got there.


I also noted earlier somewhere there was mention of rolling balls wandering on the green. Any observant player will notice that on traditional green swards downhill putts that are basically crawling down the slope will wander from side to side but this is usually abit one way then a bit the other.


I agree that the poa had no influence on PM put.


Jon

[Sean_A]

I have great respect for the greenkeepers at Castle Stuart and all they do.  However, the last time I saw them both, The Renaissance Club was even better condition-wise.  The Renaissance Club has a roughly equal budget to Castle Stuart [of course I'm guessing there], but far less wear and tear from golfers due to it being a private club.


I do agree with those posts that the extreme expense of agronomic perfection is not something courses should be striving for.

Tom


I gotta say that the condition of Renaissance's greens for your doo were perfect (probably top 5 I have seen ever in GB&I) on the second day.  Perhaps so perfect that were were too fast given the state of the rough. 


Ciao

[Andrew Simpson]

I have great respect for the greenkeepers at Castle Stuart and all they do.  However, the last time I saw them both, The Renaissance Club was even better condition-wise.  The Renaissance Club has a roughly equal budget to Castle Stuart [of course I'm guessing there], but far less wear and tear from golfers due to it being a private club.
I do agree with those posts that the extreme expense of agronomic perfection is not something courses should be striving for.

I've nothing against the team at CS, simply saying they were not "Perfection" as the original article said or as "Magnificent" as some mentioned.

I agree, a course being private will have far less wear and tear and in turn be better condition wise.

Would a busy members club have more wear and tear than a quieter commercial venue?

I gotta say that the condition of Renaissance's greens for your doo were perfect (probably top 5 I have seen ever in GB&I) on the second day.  Perhaps so perfect that were were too fast given the state of the rough. 
Ciao

A sudden wee change from no decent greens in the barren North that is Scotland earlier. :-)

[Sean_A]

I have great respect for the greenkeepers at Castle Stuart and all they do.  However, the last time I saw them both, The Renaissance Club was even better condition-wise.  The Renaissance Club has a roughly equal budget to Castle Stuart [of course I'm guessing there], but far less wear and tear from golfers due to it being a private club.
I do agree with those posts that the extreme expense of agronomic perfection is not something courses should be striving for.

I've nothing against the team at CS, simply saying they were not "Perfection" as the original article said or as "Magnificent" as some mentioned.

I agree, a course being private will have far less wear and tear and in turn be better condition wise.

Would a busy members club have more wear and tear than a quieter commercial venue?

I gotta say that the condition of Renaissance's greens for your doo were perfect (probably top 5 I have seen ever in GB&I) on the second day.  Perhaps so perfect that were were too fast given the state of the rough. 


Ciao

A sudden wee change from no decent greens in the barren North that is Scotland earlier. :-)

There seems to be a problem with reading skills on this site. I reiterate

That said, Scotland is well north.  Getting to play on greens in top nick on any given day is a near miracle.  I usually hope for firm and true...if I get some speed its a mega bonus.  If I wanted only to play solely on quality greens in good nick, I wouldn't ever go to Scotland. 

The above sentiments in no way contradict the statement below

I gotta say that the condition of Renaissance's greens for your doo were perfect (probably top 5 I have seen ever in GB&I) on the second day.  Perhaps so perfect that were were too fast given the state of the rough. 

Jeez, sometimes the crowd on this board is just looking for nonsense to argue about.  It is somewhat disconcerting that people feel the constant need to "defend their turf" against imaginary attacks.  In my case, stick to what was written unless you get an emoticon....there is no need to read between the lines.

Ciao

[Pat Burke]

Played Monifieth in the senior qualifier last week.
Beautiful greens with "correct" pace.  Had they been a tick faster,
We would have had balls wobbling on the greens in the wind we played in.
With correct speeds, we had no problems.  Monifieths greens were surprisingly flat, and I was continually over reading putts.  There was some inconsistency in the greens,
If you hit multiple putts you would see a slight different roll,mwhich balls falling left one time,might the next, but I would be happy to have those greens on my course.


Carnousties greens are beautiful for the tournament

[Thomas Dai]

Putting surfaces - I wonder what % of players putt well enough that the kind of inconsistancies mentioned above makes a difference to their overall score?
Atb

[jeffwarne]

Putting surfaces - I wonder what % of players putt well enough that the kind of inconsistancies mentioned above makes a difference to their overall score?
Atb

+1 Thomas
I've always wondered why bad and inconsistent putters want "true" greens.


Pat completely nailed it and that's been my experience with virtually every set of UK greens I've played in the past 20 years.
Anecdotally, it seems like every event I've played in the MET area this year has had alarmingly fast greens.
Somehow we got into a silly arms race over here and we support it with our dues and worship/elevation of those that provide the fastest surfaces (self fulfilling prophecy)

[Sean_A]

It strikes me as strange that folks don't seem to care about better quality greens year round...especially in winter or during wet periods.  This exact issue is a major reason why clubs are now using less feed and water. That is the direct result of more fescue and less pao in the sward and a huge reason why the heathlands were chosen as the prime area to mimic links conditions. 

I thought I heard it all, but now folks want bumpy greens  .  It doesn't matter who is putting, true greens are always preferable to bumpy greens. 



Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

My experience in Scotland is obviously very different to yours, Sean.  This week both at Elie and Crail I have enjoyed putting on very true greens.  Not lightening fast, I'll grant you, but true.  To be honest, if the greens at Elie had been fast, even as high as 10, on Saturday play would not have been possible with the wind speeds we had.  Even at the pace they are (i'm not good at Stimp speeds but perhaps the ball was oscillating.  I'd characterise greens at both clubs at the moment as true, slow-ish and a bit softer than ideal.  My guess is that most courses in Scotland are similar at the moment.

[Niall C]

Both CS and the Renaissance are fairly unique in Scotland in that they have relatively high budgets compared to traditional member clubs, perhaps have lighter play than some other top clubs, and as Adam pointed out before both are fairly new and therefore maybe don't have the grass mix older greens have. That adds up to the opportunity to provide excellent playing surfaces and any time I've played either they have been excellent. Now I'm certainly not an agronomist and don't have experience of top courses at their very best but I'd be absolutely delighted with the condition at CS/Renaissance being replicated at my home club.


One comment I found interesting was Sean on the speed of the greens at Renaissance. My problem at Renaissance was that I tended to over estimate the speed. Not sure if that's because they looked absolutely minted (to this admittedly uneducated eye) that I was intimidated, or simply confused speed with conditioning, I don't know. I do know that if you get the speed wrong on fairly contoured greens you can look fairly silly which I did on more than one occasion.


Niall