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Cliff Hamm

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The Ground Game
« on: July 17, 2016, 11:06:33 AM »
Everyone talks about the wonders of links golf.  It gives you options and requires a variety of shots.  It is not just an aerial game.  Well, I suspect because it is green and the wind is not fierce, but not much ground game at Troon.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2016, 11:29:33 AM »
Even in the Book "Golf as it was in the beginning" and in other photos, I have noticed the links courses getting greener and greener, and approach shots stopping quicker and quicker from the first time I went over there in 1981.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andrew Simpson

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2016, 12:07:09 PM »
It is a bit green and not fiery but the option is there to use the ground.
As for the guys you are watching, they have something a little special and make the difficult look ordinary.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2016, 12:14:23 PM »
So if the pros are so good they do not need to play the ground game, and a links course is designed to play the ground game, is it a stretch to say that architecture is more important to the average golfer?  The pros are so good that conditions will effect their game, but architecture not as much up to a point?


BTW what we're watching is historic... golf has needed a great major and this seems to be it...

Andrew Simpson

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2016, 12:31:03 PM »
It's not a new thing that pros are playing different courses to us mere mortals or as they were designes. They are adapting courses for them on a weekly basis, be it adding yardage, placing pins in tighter areas, narrowing fairways, heavier rough, its not just a links thing. Now if it was windy and the fairways were like marble then even the big boys might need to use the ground a bit more.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2016, 05:33:40 PM »
or maybe it is just because we have had a wettish spring and early summer making even the links courses a little softer than normal. Were it drier than the ball would be running a lot more and players would play accordingly.

James Brown

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 08:46:35 PM »
It's been a wet year.  That simple.

Niall C

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2016, 08:39:43 AM »
Reading some comments you'd think that it has been universally damp all year throughout Scotland. In actual fact if the Open had been held about 4 or 5 weeks ago you'd have seen fairways that were yellow/brown with dust being thrown up as the ball landed. Unfortunately we've had a fair bit of rain since then. The upside of the earlier good weather however was that the rough is very playable.


To answer the question as to why these guys didn't opt for run up shots too often, I think the reason is simply they are so adept at using their wedges and getting spin that it is their low risk option. For us lesser mortals that's not really the case.


Niall

Tim Gallant

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2016, 08:49:29 AM »
Interesting topic. I have played Carnoustie 4-5 times now and not once have I played it in 'links' conditions. I played the Championship course one morning and then played Panmure in the pm and could notice a big difference in the ground speeds (the latter having substantially better firm & fast conditions). Just a one-off blip? Not so sure. I do think that the expectation from golfing tourists for Championship courses is becoming more and more geared towards perfection.


This past Saturday, I played Silloth and was so happy to see that the fairways (in areas) were patchy, and looked much more natural. I drew a few 'ok' lies in the fairways, but I certainly wasn't complaining as I know my opponent was facing similar conditions.


As a final point, I was listening to BBC radio yesterday for the match, and one of the commentators lambasted Phil for bumping his second shot into the bank instead of flopping it near the pin. Was he not trying to play the ground game?

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2016, 10:26:07 AM »
I played around Ireland last year playing my hickories. Caddies that I took were all enthusiastic and talked about playing the game the way it was meant to be played. They espoused the benefits of the ground game but invariably when selecting a club for an approach shot they would suggest an aerial shot. When I would ask how the ground moved 20, 30, 50 yards out they were at a loss as they had never really considered such shots.
When low running shots from 50 to 150 yards found their way to the green over rumpled fairways I believe the caddies were more exited than me. I understand that I am unconventional golfer in that I am play for fun not score and hitting a 130 yard approach cleek over uncertain terrain is far more satisfying than flying a mashie niblick to the front of the green.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2016, 12:09:15 PM »
Can a case be made that "links" courses on this side of the pond, play more like a links course should?   For example the northeast gets thunderstorms but not a plethora of rain in the summer. In the British Isles it tends to always be raining.   


Courses like Newport and I believe Maidstone do not water their fairways. Perhaps Cabot should be included They hence will play more linksy than the British Isles.

David_Tepper

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2016, 12:21:18 PM »
"Can a case be made that "links" courses on this side of the pond, play more like a links course should?   For example the northeast gets thunderstorms but not a plethora of rain in the summer. In the British Isles it tends to always be raining."   

Cliff H. -

You are mistaken on both counts! ;)

The recent US Opens at Bethpage, Congressional & Oakmont have significantly been impacted by rain.

It is not always raining in the British Isles. I have spent multi-week periods there over the past decade where it has rained little or not at all. I have gone weeks in Dornoch without repairing a pitchmark. 

DT 

Tim Gallant

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 12:26:45 PM »
"Can a case be made that "links" courses on this side of the pond, play more like a links course should?   For example the northeast gets thunderstorms but not a plethora of rain in the summer. In the British Isles it tends to always be raining."   

Cliff H. -

You are mistaken on both counts! ;)

The recent US Opens at Bethpage, Congressional & Oakmont have significantly been impacted by rain.

It is not always raining in the British Isles. I have spent multi-week periods there over the past decade where it has rained little or not at all. I have gone weeks in Dornoch without repairing a pitchmark. 

DT


So NOW we know the culprit :) DT are you in Dornoch now? When are swinging by Edinburgh?!

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 12:27:08 PM »
 I was too lazy to put always in quotes.    May and June typically  receive much more rain than July and August.  The U.S. Open may feel like summer but it is really held at the very end of spring.


No disagreement that courses are wet in mid June.  By August if fairways are not being watered they will typically be fast and firm.

David_Tepper

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2016, 09:59:49 PM »
Cliff H. -

Looks like it will be soft & soggy at Baltusrol this week. It does rain in the northeast in the summer months. ;)

DT
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 10:15:35 PM by David_Tepper »

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2016, 10:26:17 AM »
Typically Jersey guy, as am I.  We hate to be wrong....It hasn't rained but once this week.  We'll see. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2016, 12:00:09 PM »
Cliff H. -

I am just a typically ex-Jersey guy. ;) The forecast thru Sunday is not especially encouraging for fans of firm & fast:

https://weather.com/weather/5day/l/USNJ0497:1:US

DT

Pat Burke

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2016, 01:18:07 PM »
In my practice rounds at Monifieth and Carnoustie, the notes in my yardage book also had information on the approaches to some greens. 
For instance, on number two at Monifieth, the approach to the green had a low area front/left, which would kick a shot hard left.  Landing an approach  on the right half of the approach would kick the ball only a little.  The pin was middle right in the qualifier.
In the round, my tee shot left me a distance that I had to land a bit short, and knowing to keep my approach a bit further right than my instincts would lead me, left me with a very good birdie opportunity.


In the playoff, my drive went much further, and on a perfect angle in the left side of the fairway.  I had  a yardage that allowed me to land the approach on the green with some spin, allowing me to avoid the big left kicker in the front, and another birdie putt with two separate approaches set up by preparing in the practice round.


The practice round observations at Carnoustie all included taking in the approaches.  Wind, club selection, and the lie in the fairway could all mean having to use the approach to bring the ball to our targets.  Even with the wet weather leading in to the tournament, Carnoustie still demanded preparing to use the approaches for shots in to the greens.

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2016, 01:56:00 PM »
Pat,
Your comments and observations above summerise why the ground game is so stimulating and pleasurable in comparison to hit-n-stick. Even more so when the wind gets up.
Atb

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground Game
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2016, 03:47:40 PM »
I too am an ex Jersey guy.   Flash flood watch in effect for tomorrow. Oh well, can't be right all the time. Scores are likely to be very, very low.