Did America introduce width to the game?

[John Kavanaugh]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach. It also seems that at Oakmont the contestants were hitting far more drivers than at Troon.  To paraphrase Clara Peller, Were's the width?


In a similar vein, thank God somebody decided to start putting the trouble on the first tee to the left. I'll give that to Bendelow.

[Sean_A]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach. It also seems that at Oakmont the contestants were hitting far more drivers than at Troon.  To paraphrase Clara Peller, Were's the width?


In a similar vein, thank God somebody decided to start putting the trouble on the first tee to the left. I'll give that to Bendelow.

JakaB


Hitting the NB's beach on #1 is user error.  Its one of the widest fairways on the course....many of the other holes have incredibly narrow fairways...why...I don't know.  The explanation given to me by Spangles was it doesn't matter because the rough is light.  I would like to see this light rough!


Ciao

[Ed Brzezowski]

Do you think it might be the " angry bush"? Did we introduce width because we do not have the native, nasty, vegetation that is evident over there? I assume it is easier to clear native areas and weed patches that it is to uproot that nasty crap over there.

So was it on purpose that we have width ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Have no idea, really.  Usually credited to the double FW at TOC.  In America, the single row quick coupler valves that comprised the first irrigation systems typically had 90 ft. radius, 180 ft./60 yard throw, and I think that kind of set corridor width back in the old days at about 60 yards, or a few yards less because the coverage is pretty weak at the far edges.

I was marking seed lines yesterday and recalled in my mind trying to ask here what a actual numeric width in yards does anyone consider "wide." I distinctly recall an early participant here claiming I was trying to "pin him down" and refusing to answer. LOL.

For the record, that one came out to a slightly disappointing 34 yards wide, but it sure seemed comfortable enough. 

I usually think of 37-40 yards (fw) as the standard fairway, and about 42 yards as minimum "wide fairway.  With multiple row irrigation, I would put wide tree to tree (or native to native) mowed play corridor as about 75 yards.  Even at 66-70 yards, I find one of four golfers find the woods, but it drops off rapidly after that.

So, irrigation has actually allowed architect to get it wider.

Love the Clara Peller reference....especially apropos to adopt in the election season, since Walter Mondale used it once.

[John Kavanaugh]

If the first at TOC is so wide why was I so scared about hitting it right? I never felt so lucky to hit a fairway.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you want to take a simplistic view..everything in America is wider, it's part of our culture. I couldn't make a living in the road business in Scotland.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach. It also seems that at Oakmont the contestants were hitting far more drivers than at Troon. 

Another GCA'er missed the first fairway LEFT this summer and lost the effin ball!

Wow. Just how wide are these 'Merican fairways?


Most lost I've ever felt was sitting at a traffic light somewhere in Mass. The junction had a crossing of two roads with 3 lanes each and 3 other possible exits. Where to head next? When will it be my turn? I'm not given to panic but...

[Bob Montle]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach.

But wasn't it nice to be able to play from the beach back over the wall to the fairway?
That's how I parred #2

[JMEvensky]

Most lost I've ever felt was sitting at a traffic light somewhere in Mass. The junction had a crossing of two roads with 3 lanes each and 3 other possible exits. Where to head next? When will it be my turn? I'm not given to panic but...

Now you know how we feel approaching a roundabout .

[John Kavanaugh]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach.

But wasn't it nice to be able to play from the beach back over the wall to the fairway?
That's how I parred #2

There was a family sitting on the beach between my ball and the green. I didn't even know it was summer.

[Bill_McBride]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach. It also seems that at Oakmont the contestants were hitting far more drivers than at Troon. 

Another GCA'er missed the first fairway LEFT this summer and lost the effin ball!

Wow. Just how wide are these 'Merican fairways?


Most lost I've ever felt was sitting at a traffic light somewhere in Mass. The junction had a crossing of two roads with 3 lanes each and 3 other possible exits. Where to head next? When will it be my turn? I'm not given to panic but...

That road crossing couldn't have been as terrifying as my first serious roundabout, joining the A4 at Reading.  Yikes!!

[Bill_McBride]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach. It also seems that at Oakmont the contestants were hitting far more drivers than at Troon.  To paraphrase Clara Peller, Were's the width?


In a similar vein, thank God somebody decided to start putting the trouble on the first tee to the left. I'll give that to Bendelow.

Didn't you play the Old Course on your trip?  The widest fairways ever (but stay left!) must have inspired what ever 60 yard wide fairways we see in America.

[John Kavanaugh]

I built my first round a bout last year. They are coming to a road near you. No matter what you may think I do believe they reduce emissions.

[Tom_Doak]

John:


There is no doubt that American fairways [especially on modern courses] are far wider than anything in Scotland, aside from the 1st/18th on The Old Course.


I am not sure that was always the case.  The early links were not mowed but grazed by sheep, and the sheep generally grazed everything between the gorse bushes.  Some courses were narrow with a lot of gorse, but I believe others were quite wide.  C.B. Macdonald in his book advocated fairways of 45-60 yards wide, which became the standard for American courses of the Golden Age -- and since everything else he did was based on what he'd seen in Scotland, presumably that was the width of those courses back in the day.


The reason modern courses are wider is that modern courses are the first where the width is decided by aesthetics [and to speed up bad golfers] rather than challenging the good player.  Wide fairways better fit the visual scale of an expansive property.

[Thomas Dai]

Visit somewhere where sheep and cattle graze and you'll usually see width. Some canals in Holland are also quite wide.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

The precise nature of the driving requirements was my favorite aspect of Scottish golf. A real treat.

[Bill_McBride]

John:


There is no doubt that American fairways [especially on modern courses] are far wider than anything in Scotland, aside from the 1st/18th on The Old Course.


I am not sure that was always the case.  The early links were not mowed but grazed by sheep, and the sheep generally grazed everything between the gorse bushes.  Some courses were narrow with a lot of gorse, but I believe others were quite wide.  C.B. Macdonald in his book advocated fairways of 45-60 yards wide, which became the standard for American courses of the Golden Age -- and since everything else he did was based on what he'd seen in Scotland, presumably that was the width of those courses back in the day.


The reason modern courses are wider is that modern courses are the first where the width is decided by aesthetics [and to speed up bad golfers] rather than challenging the good player.  Wide fairways better fit the visual scale of an expansive property.

Tom, I know you've played the Balcomie at Crail and at Elie.  I don't think of those as narrow fairways. 

[Peter Pallotta]

I tend to think that when gca migrated to America it became more self aware, such that design decisions soon began to have more conscious meanings and significance, and with that of course came more signs and signifiers. Wide fairways signified a certain architectural intention and ethos, and thus served as something like an early marketing tool -- a tool that had to be used more widely and consistently and uniformly (than in GB&I) in order to be effective. To put it too bluntly: a humble and diverse folk art became a proud and self-conscious Art, and the latter always seems to entail the emergence of Ideals and Guidelines (if not outright 'rules' and badges of honour).

Peter

[RSantangelo]

One thing I thought I might add is seems its hard to compare fairway width on an absolute basis without thinking about the average drive length at the time the courses were designed.  Simply put, a 175 yard drive hit 10 degrees offline needs roundly 35 yards of with...a 275 yard drive would need 55 yards. Likewise, when I hit it offline with hickories, because the roll comprises more of the total length, poor hits seem to travel less because the rough grabs them whereas my modern driver soars through the air into the woods


I notice when I play hickory I almost never spend time looking for balls and certainly not in the woods

Any thoughts others might offer?

[John Kavanaugh]

The architects of Scotland built courses for their own sport while the architects in America built for other people's money. The resulting simplicity out of a need to please seems obvious.

[Mike_Trenham]

Is another way to think about it, the higher we hit the ball the wider the course we seem to demand.

[Sean_A]

I didn't see it in Scotland as my first two tee shots at North Berwick found the beach. It also seems that at Oakmont the contestants were hitting far more drivers than at Troon. 

Another GCA'er missed the first fairway LEFT this summer and lost the effin ball!

Wow. Just how wide are these 'Merican fairways?


Most lost I've ever felt was sitting at a traffic light somewhere in Mass. The junction had a crossing of two roads with 3 lanes each and 3 other possible exits. Where to head next? When will it be my turn? I'm not given to panic but...

Spangles


I disagree with Tom etc.  Its really only the current super cool moderns which feature wide fairways in contrast to the championship/big name UK links which usually offer something considerably less than wide fairways. That said, fairway width, unless extremely wide as in Bulls Bay style, is only half the picture.  Wind, terrain, hazards and rough are the other components which effectively tells the real story about fairway width. Jeff's 42 yard wide fairways aren't effectively wide if there is hay lining each side of the fairway and bunkers everywhere....as is the case with many "championship" links.  Even the so called ultra-wide TOC is nowhere near as wide as its reputations suggests.


Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

The architects of Scotland built courses for their own sport while the architects in America built for other people's money. The resulting simplicity out of a need to please seems obvious.

Can you list the courses you played? I saw North Berwick and The Old Course so far.


My general impression of American rough versus Irish rough is 1 stroke penalty in US and 0.5 penalty in Ireland. I have been to Scotland, but did not play. I have only played one course in England.

[Thomas Dai]

The architects of Scotland built courses for their own sport while the architects in America built for other people's money. The resulting simplicity out of a need to please seems obvious.

Can you list the courses you played? I saw North Berwick and The Old Course so far.
My general impression of American rough versus Irish rough is 1 stroke penalty in US and 0.5 penalty in Ireland. I have been to Scotland, but did not play. I have only played one course in England.

Degrees of rough in various countries -


Playing at Cruden Bay. Playing partner blocks one miles right onto the hill on the 8th. We all climb the hill. The players ball is found. Only one problem, the player then can't find his bag! Eventually, after we let the the group behind through, he finds it.


Playing in Asia. Playing partner, different one, tees off and hits one just a few feet into the gunch. Caddy gives player another ball. Player looks confused, says he reckons the ball should be findable. Caddy points to sign that says 'Beware snakes'. Player tees up another ball.


I'm sure others posting herein have similar stories.


Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

The architects of Scotland built courses for their own sport while the architects in America built for other people's money. The resulting simplicity out of a need to please seems obvious.

Can you list the courses you played? I saw North Berwick and The Old Course so far.


My general impression of American rough versus Irish rough is 1 stroke penalty in US and 0.5 penalty in Ireland. I have been to Scotland, but did not play. I have only played one course in England.

Mike, you know I don't list courses. What's is important is that North Berwick has had an unusual amount of rain this year and the rough was much thicker than usual. Still, I don't recall our group losing a ball.


My thoughts on width center around the severity of the bunkers more than the rough. Compare a pot bunker in Scotland to a lateral hazard in the U.S. Hit into a bunker in Scotland and you still need skill to get your ball out to prepare for your next shot, often leading to more than a one stroke penalty. Hit your ball into a lateral hazard and all you need is another ball.


During the course of the trip I played the Jubilee with one club, a 17 deg hybrid, and may have set the record for farthest shot hit backwards, some 70 yds the wrong way out of a pot bunker. Even that was better than leaving the ball in the hazard but if it were a lateral hazard I would have been laying two 70 yds closer to the hole.