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Malcolm Mckinnon

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What makes Authentic Links Land?
« on: July 15, 2016, 12:29:42 AM »
My "American" interpretation of links land led me towards the undulating, lumpy and sandy dune like coastal strips of terrain. On the other hand the flatish border/waste areas between town and sea are more in line with what I was presented with when I toured the R&A clubhouse with their curator. There, I was advised that links were just the land between town and sea.

So what is Links Land? Town but no lumps like Elie? Lumps and Duney but no Town  like Askernish?  Please Advise....
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:51:03 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Charles Lund

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 01:55:35 AM »
See David Worley's Journey Through the Links or Peper and Campbell's True Links. 

There was a recent thread dealing with routings and whether that was a basis for considering a course a links course.  The resounding consensus was NO.  It was mostly terrain, turf, and proximity to the sea.

Charles Lund

Tom_Doak

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 09:24:26 AM »
Malcolm:


The earliest definition I read, back in the 1970's before "links" was a golf brand to be protected and/or usurped and/or argued over, was that the links land was the area between the farmable land and the primary sand dunes along the beach.  It was used only as grazing land because it was too sandy to farm.


Occasionally in Scottish towns you will see signs directing you to the "Links" and it is not to a golf course, just to a closely-mown area near the shore.

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 10:12:32 PM »
Tom,


I get the "brand-ing" and that is what I am driving at with this post. Fact is that "Links Land" is not that clearly defined.


I threw this post out as "red meat" to see what our "educated" golf architecture "wing nuts" might think.


Unfortunately, not so much...


Malcolm

« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:16:37 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

John Cowden

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 10:28:50 PM »
Not sure I get it.   Links are what they are, per Messrs Doak or Peper/Campbell.  Sure there's room for intelligent discussion, but I don't understand your query.  Are you looking for an argument?   I defer to my aforementioned champions. 

So, let's talk the Sandhills.  Not links by any true measure, but the ground, esp. fescue, plays as true and as erratic as any definition you might choose.  Particularly the Ballyneal 'swardj where brown is the new green.  But you dare not call them links, least not this eon.  Maybe once. 

Peace. 

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 10:40:05 PM »
No, I am not looking for an argument!


Just looking to stir up a conversation. 


What constitutes Links-land? I have read the Michael Bamberger Book "to the Linksland" but Golfing around Scotland I have found many wonderful seaside courses that, in my mind, are not routed upon what I would consider the aforementioned.


What are your thoughts?

Charles Lund

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2016, 10:56:19 PM »
Perhaps you could list the courses that didn't seem like links and those that clearly did.  That would help discussion.  You might be talking about courses near the sea that might not be links.


Charles Lund

Charles Lund

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2016, 11:11:46 PM »
Malcolm,

Here is a link to a worldwide list of links and links like courses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_links_golf_courses

Perhaps you can look up the courses you are curious about and let us know what you find.

Charles Lund

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2016, 03:16:49 AM »
Like I argued on t'other thread, I find the Peper/Campbell definitions to be too deliberate.

A links is purely defined by the geographic/ geologic / pedologic history of the ground - i.e. How and where it was formed.

Like Tom says, it has to have had some history linking the sea fore-dunes with the farming land behind.

You can change the grasses, add water hazards, plant trees, use striped mowing patterns, do whatever you like to it but you are still playing on links land. You are just playing on less "links like" conditions.

Only when the use of the land has been changed over the centuries by cultivation, farming and flattening can you consider it no longer the links. At that point it has become the arable land that was previously "linked" to the sea. It is no longer the link.

Tom_Doak

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2016, 06:54:21 AM »
Like I argued on t'other thread, I find the Peper/Campbell definitions to be too deliberate.

A links is purely defined by the geographic/ geologic / pedologic history of the ground - i.e. How and where it was formed.

Like Tom says, it has to have had some history linking the sea fore-dunes with the farming land behind.

You can change the grasses, add water hazards, plant trees, use striped mowing patterns, do whatever you like to it but you are still playing on links land. You are just playing on less "links like" conditions.

Only when the use of the land has been changed over the centuries by cultivation, farming and flattening can you consider it no longer the links. At that point it has become the arable land that was previously "linked" to the sea. It is no longer the link.


Ally:


One of the best ones to debate is Gullane.  The Hill obviously didn't just "recede from the sea" but there is plenty of sand deposited on it by the west winds from Edinburgh.  The bouncy turf and style of golf played is certainly links, but does everyone in the UK agree with that one?


Likewise, I've had people tell me the Bandon courses are not true links because they sit up on a cliff top, but so does Ballybunion.

Thomas Dai

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2016, 07:08:14 AM »

Like I argued on t'other thread, I find the Peper/Campbell definitions to be too deliberate.
A links is purely defined by the geographic/ geologic / pedologic history of the ground - i.e. How and where it was formed.
Like Tom says, it has to have had some history linking the sea fore-dunes with the farming land behind.
You can change the grasses, add water hazards, plant trees, use striped mowing patterns, do whatever you like to it but you are still playing on links land. You are just playing on less "links like" conditions.
Only when the use of the land has been changed over the centuries by cultivation, farming and flattening can you consider it no longer the links. At that point it has become the arable land that was previously "linked" to the sea. It is no longer the link.

Ally:
One of the best ones to debate is Gullane.  The Hill obviously didn't just "recede from the sea" but there is plenty of sand deposited on it by the west winds from Edinburgh.  The bouncy turf and style of golf played is certainly links, but does everyone in the UK agree with that one?
Likewise, I've had people tell me the Bandon courses are not true links because they sit up on a cliff top, but so does Ballybunion.

And links areas move, rivers and bays narrow and widen, access to ports dry-up, beaches can even be stripped of sand altogether.

Has there been a GCA thread about sea defences and links courses?

Atb



Ally Mcintosh

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2016, 07:55:08 AM »
Links areas move no doubt.

It is very easy to see where links land is either acreting or eroding. You'll see different grasses taking on the new fore dunes when land is growing, lyme grass and sea couch on the sea side of the primary dune. The marram will only form where the dunes are a little older and more stabilised.

Perched dunes on cliff tops form the same way. They have either been formed during bouts of high sea level or the cliffs have formed through erosion. Same basic principle however.

Gullane Hill is an interesting one. I'm not familiar with how it formed but even if the sand blew from inland somewhere, its connection to the links land by the sea means I suspect it was links land in original form also, even if that form changed through some other method.

As a final point of interest, all links land will eventually succede to forest over millions of years if left untouched.

RJ_Daley

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2016, 12:35:06 PM »
In a pure discussion of definition of "links", I'd feel those offered by Ally and Tom seem most accurate from a geographical and geological point of view, and add the historical sense of it as it relates to golf.

Charles link to the Wiki list seems far too many stretch the definition and situational location, adding that if it is sand based and dunesy, well it is considered links in some sense.

For me, I prefer to just think of it as "plays firm and fast due to sand based and properly maintained turf to traditional links standards".  If the sward and soil yield true bounding ground game, and interesting topography yields interesting variety and frequency of roll, tee through greens and surrounds; then who cares if the sea or water linked to town or arable farm land are a stones throw or a two day drive?  It is the fun of the conditions yielded by the soil, turf, topo, and of course visits of the 4 winds to add to the joy of the game played on such in my view.

Then, when it comes to golf, it takes a well versed archie to find the course, or create the course routing, and know how to place the hazards, with due consideration to those qualities of specific turf species and soil qualities in order to design the proper construction of the hazards and features.  Thus, we get the variance of the MacKenzie, prairie, or riveted style bunkers, and frequency of rolls and slope and size of greens and their surrounds.  This is where I think our fun comes from, to see how various archies deal with "links or links-like" qualities in their various approaches and ideas.
 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 12:41:10 PM by RJ_Daley »
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Charles Lund

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2016, 01:25:19 PM »
I posted the list so that Malcolm could look at it to consider those seaside courses he was wondering about, compared to an established list.

It is a wikipedia version of what is purported to be the Peper and Campbell 246 courses they identified. 

The entries in Italics are those which would be considered links like, according to the authors.  This makes three of four Bandon courses pretty much the only ones in the U.S.  I am not sure what the blue versus read colored fonts indicate.

Was curious to see a reply from Malcolm to see how the list clarified for him a distinction he was interested in.

Charles Lund

Andy Shulman

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2016, 03:58:21 PM »
There are many courses that are hybrids with links, heathland and parkland holes.  Examples include Golspie (which is included on the Wikipedia list) and Scotscraig (which is not).


What about courses like Kingsbarns and Cabot Links?  Cabot is fabulous and plays like a "pure" links, but here's an excerpt from an article at golfcoursearchitecture.net:


"...the Inverness property is not pure untouched linksland like Bandon, or like Donald Trump’s new course in Scotland. There are natural sandy features aplenty at Cabot, but part of the site is reclaimed from the coal mine that formerly gave Inverness its living, and other parts have a heavier subsoil that has been capped with sand mined elsewhere on the property. Purists and pedants can debate whether a course built on such property should be dubbed a links, but golfers will make their call on the playing qualities of the course, and here, for my money, there is no doubt."

Charles Lund

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2016, 05:39:25 PM »
Andy,

In the compilation of the list, courses were designated as links and links like. 

Golspie is italicized on the list posted, so that indicates links like.  Cabot and Kingsbarns are not shown in italics, so that means links.

I still haven't found what the blue versus red font indicates.

Charles Lund

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2016, 09:38:12 PM »
What do you think of this? Undeveloped land beside Gullane Number Two. Links land? I say yes!


DSCN0459 by Malcolm Mckinnon, on Flickr


And here...


Visible behind green!


DSCN0475 by Malcolm Mckinnon, on Flickr

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2016, 09:43:55 PM »
Charles,


I do appreciate your list but what prompted this thread is the "huge" differences I perceive between, for example in close proximity, Elie Golf House and the Interleven (Lundin and Leven/Old Tom Morris holes). All are called Links land but they are night and day as far as the land they are routed upon.


Best!


Malcolm

« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 10:47:06 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

RJ_Daley

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2016, 10:12:03 PM »
Charles, when you run the cursor over blue, those courses have their own Wiki entry, and red do not have their own Wiki page.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Charles Lund

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2016, 01:01:53 AM »
Dick,

Thanks for the clarification about blue fonts.

Malcolm,

I have played on some very flat links courses such as The Princes next to Royal St . Georges and some with a reasonable amount of elevation changes, such Sandy Hills at Rosapenna or Glashedy at Ballyliffin or Murcar, Royal Dornoch, or Cruden Bay.  The elevation changes or lack thereof can alter visual perception and how much of the course you can see.

There are a variety of native grasses, some of which grow in different places than others, based on the  mineral content in sand based soils and how far away they are from the sea.

The fast and firm character of natural sand based playing surfaces, contouring around greens that promote a ground game, and coastal climates that promote certain native grass types would seem to be crucial.

The courses are basically well known and identified. Some courses will have predominantly links elements that are clear and obvious with a few holes with a different appearance due to playing at a different elevation or being farther from the sea or sea inlet.  Portsalon and The Dooks come to mind in that regard.

Mark Pearce

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2016, 04:06:08 AM »
Malcolm,


I simply don't agree with your premise that the land at Elie is so different from that at Lundin and Leven.  Sure, the latter two have more obvious dunes (though 10 and 11 at Elie are separated by a dune) but in other respects (the sandiness of the soil, the grasses) they are pretty similar.  In fact I'd argue that the slightly less dramatic contouring of the land at Elie is similar to that at, say, Muirfield and is superior for golf to the more extreme dunes structures elsewhere.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2016, 05:04:55 AM »
Malcolm


The most learned explanation of this question is Charles Price's book, "Scotland's Golf Courses."  Charles is an eminent geologist, and his book explains the geomorphology of all of Scotland's golf courses.  He was significantly involved in advising the developers on the fine details of the architecture at Kingsbarns.


I read the book 20 years ago, and from what I can remember, many golf courses called "pure links" are actually geological mongrels.  For example, holes 1,2, 7, 8, 17 and 18 at Dornoch and holes 1, 2, 3 and 18 at Elie are completely or partiallybuilt not on "linksland" but on "raised beaches."


Check out his fine interview on this site....


http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/robert-price-july-2002/


....and then buy the book!


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2016, 05:15:00 AM »
Rich,

Thank you very much for reminding me of that book. I picked it up in a shop a number of years ago, flicked through it and remembered thinking that at last here was a book with good technical detail rather than journalistic blurb. I have no idea why I didn't buy it there and then. But I will now.

Ally

Jon Wiggett

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2016, 05:32:56 AM »
Ally,


as Rihc says it is an excellent book and worth buying for the read. In the end though what is links land is really down to personal interpretation and I would suggest from a golfing point of view that any course within close proximity of the sea with the correct playing characteristics could be considered to be a links course.


Jon

Thomas Dai

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Re: What makes Authentic Links Land?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2016, 06:27:21 AM »
Raised beaches are very common. There are long stretches along the coast of N and NE Scotland for example.

Some high cliffs have large storm tossed rocks and boulders on top thrown up from below so I wonder how high generally will the wind or a storm blow lighter particle sand up a cliff before the sand settles on the cliff-top?

And there's river sand as well and I presume consequentially sandy patches along some rivers.


Atb
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 06:28:58 AM by Thomas Dai »