[Rick Emerson]

I just got back from a two day trip where I played Kingsley club Tuesday morning and the Black Course of The Loop Tuesday afternoon. Followed by the Red Course of The Loop Wednesday Morning and Forest Dunes in the afternoon. I thought I'd give a few thoughts and impressions on the Loop since not very many have seen or played it yet.
1. Mr. Doak took a relatively flat site and made it tons of fun with lots of small undulations and interesting crowned greens. What slopes and hills that were there were used to make interesting fairway contours and make a variety of holes and shot values. There is lots of strategy and much to learn. There is also lots of variety on both courses with short long and midrange par 3's 4's and 5's and of course, lots of half par holes. You will definitely want to play it each way more than once and lots of holes left me with the I will play that one differently next time. The course works and plays well both ways and I'm not sure which direction I like better. There are lots of great holes on both and none of the holes stand out as bad.
2. It reminds me of a mixture of St. Andrews with Rossesque (not a word, maybe Ross-like) greens. The Saint Andrews from flat site with lots of small undulations, sandy soil, fast firm fescue surfaces, quite a few hidden bunkers and mostly wide open but with strategic places to hit the ball for the best angles that change based on pin positions. The Ross from the greens which are mostly crowned with flat potions and bowls with lots of tight grassed run offs. The greens are very different from what most people think of when they think of Doak. There are not a lot of wild internal contours and only a few of the backstops and slopes to bank pitches and approaches off of like at many of his other courses. However, form follows function and I think this was necessary for the greens to accept approaches from multiple directions.
3. Forest Dunes now has two vastly different Courses. Forest Dunes is a typical modern American Weiskopf design. It plays like an american parkland course. It is excellently maintained with very fast smooth putting surfaces that hold approaches and chips and pitches with spin. It is tight driving but the ball doesn't roll much. The Loop on the other hand plays crazy fast with the fescue, The greens are firm and downwind approaches need to land sometime as much as 40 yards short. It is still growing in so the grass is patchy and sparse but I bet it is perfect next year. Bump and runs and putts are the best choice around the greens. The sand is heavy and firm. The wind plays a much bigger factor in the wide open spaces of the loop verses the narrow tree lined fairways of Forest Dunes. It is excellent for variety, but I think that most patrons of the resort will probably like one course and dislike the other with the average American golfer leaning towards Forest Dunes while most well traveled architecture nerds like myself and most of the people on this site leaning toward The Loop. I definitely preferred The Loop and if and when I get to return I may play all my rounds there exclusively. It is a style of golf and play that most Americans experience rarely if ever.
If anybody has questions I would be glad to answer them. I will also do another post soon with favorite holes and features. Alas, I also took no pictures. I played both my rounds solo in around 2.5 hours and in my haste didn't take any. Sorry.  [size=78%]  [/size]

[Mike Schott]

A work colleague is coming to Michigan from Chicago to visit customers with me in the Thumb and then he and I will be driving to Forest Dunes, playing The Loop Thursday PM and in the other direction Friday AM. We are so looking to forward to this opportunity! We may even be playing in British links conditions, chilly and rainy. I cannot wait!

[Steve Lang]

   Chilly and rainy, ugh!  But if you must, play on.. and enjoy

Look from Black 1 tee

[George Pazin]

You must be pretty die hard to play in such tough conditions...

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Rick.

Tom D - reading this, I was reminded that in the past you've noted one of the differences between you and Bill Coore as being the way you tend to approach your greens -- if memory serves, Bill tends to build up the green site while you tend to cut away at it.  If that's true, were the greens at The Loop a departure for you and the team, i.e. did you create them more by "building up" than you have at many of your other courses?  And if so, I'd be interesting in your experience with/reflections on the approach.

Thanks
Peter 

[Steve Lang]

   one might miss some if there weren't flags and a different shade of green..



or a discernable swale



or sand & ridge contrast



some have a subtle potato chip feel built on the land



and per the yardage book, short right is indeed receptive


but for any green, it depends which way you're going, as has been discussed



bounce on and short game 'em, was advice given to me, with a smile



better be on your game and not afraid



and be prepared for a little bit of quirk or fun, depending on your attitude



classic challenges, nothing extreme

[Rick Emerson]

Steve,Thanks for posting all the great pictures. The course is so much fun.


My favorite part was all the options the short grass, firm conditions, humps and bumps and undulating greens sloped in different directions offered.
Bounce on and short game em indeed! This may be my new favorite saying. I was able to play a lot of great courses this summer and while some courses like Five Farms were more challenging, The Loop and Kingsley were the most fun. The Loop is just so different from what most of us who grew up playing golf in America are used to. 
It seems like Northern Michigan has so much golf diversity in close proximity. It is especially interesting to play the two golf courses at Forest Dunes that are so different in style and playing conditions. While many people probably will go there and decide they like one course and dislike the other we might be better off just appreciating the diversity.

[Steve Lang]

        Eric,   sorry  Rick,

Couldn't agree with you more, I feel blessed having a summer camp about 45 minutes or so away.   


Waiting for astavrides to chime in.... unknowingly, till later, he was following ms sheila and i on labor day

Also, I was so intrigued looking at the rough areas from the tees, often the only contrast other than the treeline, that I tended to hit into some of them, i guess part of exploring or just being draaaaawn into things



Yes that’s my ball, it was surprisingly easy to recover out of the crap stuff, I’ll bet that next year it won’t be so easy

 


all the way to the end



     and that darn maple screwing with you from the right side of the fairway, ain’t so big that a low cut around it can’t roll up onto the green

[Rick Emerson]

       Eric,

Couldn't agree with you more, I feel blessed having a summer camp about 45 minutes or so away.   


Waiting for astavrides to chime in.... unknowingly, till later, he was following ms sheila and i on labor day

Also, I was so intrigued looking at the rough areas from the tees, often the only contrast other than the treeline, that I tended to hit into some of them, i guess part of exploring or just being draaaaawn into things

Am I Eric?
I actually thought that rough areas were magnetic too. Some of them pinched in right where a drive would land and sometimes my shots would hit that firm fescue and just keep going; especially with my propensity to draw (sometimes hook). My first round especially, I found my ball going way further than I thought it would go.

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks, Rick.

Tom D - reading this, I was reminded that in the past you've noted one of the differences between you and Bill Coore as being the way you tend to approach your greens -- if memory serves, Bill tends to build up the green site while you tend to cut away at it.  If that's true, were the greens at The Loop a departure for you and the team, i.e. did you create them more by "building up" than you have at many of your other courses?  And if so, I'd be interesting in your experience with/reflections on the approach.

Thanks
Peter

Peter:
None of the greens at The Loop were built with any fill dirt apart from the greens mix.  I don't like to do that, so I tend to locate greens on natural high spots where fill isn't necessary to solve drainage issues.

Bill is more likely to find a lower green site, and then use a bit of fill to keep it out of the drainage flow.

However, your question made me realize that when we build greens with sand mix ( as opposed to native sand ) they sit a bit higher even after we have shaped a "well" to fill up with sand.  If we hadn't had to screen the sand at Forest Dunes for stones and then put it back down, the chip shots would probably be a little easier!

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Tom -

I could see from photos (like Steve's) that the greens were relatively low profile, but I didn't realize (actually, I couldn't imagine) that you'd be able to find and shape greens that worked in two directions simply using green mix. I don't know the art-craft of golf course architecture at all, but that seems very impressive.

Peter

[astavrides]

Waiting for astavrides to chime in.... unknowingly, till later, he was following ms sheila and i on labor day

Well, since you asked, I'll say a few words.
I think it's a great concept and it is a great to have more linkslike courses in the US.


I'll reserve more comment on how it plays until the conditions settle in a bit.


But one thing that surprised me was the number of holes which seemed to have depressions in front of the green, which made bouncing the ball in difficult. And the greens are so firm now (not sure if they'll always be that way), that landing the ball on the green was also a difficult proposition. I noticed this more on the black loop than the red, but I didn't go back to count the number of holes in each direction which might fit that description. Maybe this is related to how Tom says he looked for the high ground for the green sites, and that the greens on this course are probably a little higher up than his usual courses.

[Mike Schott]

Waiting for astavrides to chime in.... unknowingly, till later, he was following ms sheila and i on labor day

Well, since you asked, I'll say a few words.
I think it's a great concept and it is a great to have more linkslike courses in the US.


I'll reserve more comment on how it plays until the conditions settle in a bit.


But one thing that surprised me was the number of holes which seemed to have depressions in front of the green, which made bouncing the ball in difficult. And the greens are so firm now (not sure if they'll always be that way), that landing the ball on the green was also a difficult proposition. I noticed this more on the black loop than the red, but I didn't go back to count the number of holes in each direction which might fit that description. Maybe this is related to how Tom says he looked for the high ground for the green sites, and that the greens on this course are probably a little higher up than his usual courses.

Played Red yesterday and Black today. I agree the greens this year are extremely firm and I'd guess they will soften as bit as they fill in. Most of my approaches from missed greens were chips with a sand wedge barely onto the green to take advantage of the firmness. This approach worked much better today after my experience yesterday.


A few other thoughts: It was windy this week with 2-3 club differences down or upwind. I found the back nine on the Black to play extremely long in these conditions. Until 18 the wind was dead in our faces. The 3 long par 3's were very tough. I played away from the greens and made nice bogeys.


Overall, my playing partner and I loved the courses. I think I like the Red a bit more but 7 and 12 on the black are world class short 2 shot holes. The first word that comes to mind is fun. There are so many options on approaches and I enjoyed figuring out the greens. On the Biarritz green on the back 9 of Black, I come up a bit short on my first putt to a pin just over the swale. Frustrating but great fun. I love that the teeing areas are so low profile. My playing partner had a frustrating day. He's about a 10 handicap and loved the course but hit what he thought were good shots with bad results. IMO he was playing the wrong kind of shot but with the extreme firmness of the greens right now sometimes there is no way to play the right shot.


Mr. Doak, how much dirt did you move on these courses?


Last, The Loop is described as being on flat ground. Not really, there are a number of holes with deep valleys (1 Red, 18 Black, Red 8, Black 11 and others) plus plenty of contour.

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