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Sam Kestin

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2016, 07:58:21 PM »
Cory--


Completely understand where you are coming from. I think a lot of the problems like those you described would disappear if the customers were a little more aware of the difference between "Hot Deals" (barter times) and the rest of the course inventory on GolfNow.


Frequently, customers believe the "Hot Deal" rate to be offered directly by the golf course itself and do not understand why the course cannot or will not accommodate them at that rate. Usually, the course operator can explain the difference but anytime you get into a confrontational situation like that nobody wins.


I empathize with your feelings about wanting to drop it but not wanting to cede whatever business you would lose from such a move to your competitors. It's extremely tough to choose to be one of the few courses NOT on GolfNow in a given market and only gets harder when you've already seen how much volume comes your way through GolfNow. It takes a lot of trust in your customer's loyalty to your course to feel confident about how much of that revenue you really will retain.


GolfNow benefitted for a very long time from not having any serious competitors in the third-party distribution space. There were really very few aggregators of tee times out there and GolfNow was one of the only major ones. Add to the equation their incredible GolfChannel advantage and there really wasn't a whole lot of meaningful competition.


TeeOff (especially now that they are partnered with the PGA TOUR) is starting to gain some traction and this healthy competition should make life a little easier for courses looking to strike a better deal with GolfNow. The sweetest offers we ever gave courses in the NYC market were to those courses about to make a technology choice between GolfNow and EZLinks/TeeOff. Tougher competition should (theoretically) always drive down price.


A piece of advice I would give any operator is to do all you can do to push your customers from GolfNow to your website. This will make it 100x easier to disengage from GolfNow should you ever choose to do so--as your customer base will already be trained to look first to your site if they are planning to book online.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2016, 08:07:37 PM »
I realize their business model from a consumer prospective is laser focused on the "Hot Deals" - they give the most reward points for hot deals and the entire rewards redemption program is only hot deals.

A few months ago, when GN was the focus of another thread, I asked several golf course operators why they continued to be affiliated with GN.  Their answer, to a person, was:  "GN increases my business - we would have fewer rounds if not for GN".

I have no dog in this fight - but, as a golf playing consumer, I can see why it's popular.


Are those rounds marginal rounds?  i.e. No extra costs involved, revenue = profit?

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2016, 09:14:30 PM »
This is like watching a car crash in slow motion.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2016, 10:07:15 PM »
I realize their business model from a consumer prospective is laser focused on the "Hot Deals" - they give the most reward points for hot deals and the entire rewards redemption program is only hot deals.

A few months ago, when GN was the focus of another thread, I asked several golf course operators why they continued to be affiliated with GN.  Their answer, to a person, was:  "GN increases my business - we would have fewer rounds if not for GN".

I have no dog in this fight - but, as a golf playing consumer, I can see why it's popular.



Are those rounds marginal rounds?  i.e. No extra costs involved, revenue = profit?
Bill, explain...dont understand question...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2016, 02:50:06 AM »
I can't get my head around these discount houses...its a strange practice to pay a company to devalue your product.  I can understand using a discounter to reach a wider audience, but selling the green fees at the same price you would on your site.  Either your product will bring in the punters or it won't.  Discounting the fee to  a level that doesn't make ends meet is dopey...even if it is only a few times a day.  People will naturally associate that heavily discounted with the rate that the course is worth...just like any other consumable product.  The sale/discounted price is THE price for a large percentage of the golfer trolling the internet for deals.  .  Once a product drops in price for whatever reason, that is in effect THE price. 

I will be damned if I will book through the course at a higher a price if I know I can be patient and get a better price...unless the course impressed me so much that I think the normal rate is still good value.

Clubs in areas should be banding together to offer rates they organize to combat these outside discounters. At least there is some hope that the revenue will be shared amongst the member clubs rather than an outside agency grabbing middle man fees.  This is in effect what happens in the UK with the union memberships.  Members of union clubs, for most counties anyway, can play other union member clubs fairly cheaply on a limited basis. 

Clubs have to think more long term on this issue.  If discounting is going to be part of the business plan long term....they have to organize their own system of discounting.  To me, using discount houses is a long term issue which is not sustainable for a large percentage of clubs.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2016, 10:35:43 AM »
I totally agree Sean.


There is absolutely no room for any ponce scheme in golf and certainly not in the UK.


I think its fair to offer tour operators a good rate so they can book short stay holidays and earn whilst not over-charging the customer. I can't understand why anyone would want to involve a third party to put your course on the internet. If your club has a website let them book through you.


Golf Now and Teeoff times will kill golf clubs. Come off as soon as you can and keep your rates and integrity up.


If you do 2-4-1s do them at day rate. Never ever have a price where someone can play cheaper that what a member can introduce you.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2016, 12:39:27 PM »
Sam:


I get the concept of the barter for one or two tee times to host tee sheets, reservations etc. Golf Now gets 100% of this greens fee revenue.


As you are aware, the vast portion of rounds played in the NYC Metro market are cart rounds or at the muni's/county courses/rented pull carts.  If I'm a small or one off operator with plenty of non-peak times to fill, I generate $0 revenue that can never be recaptured with an unused tee time.  Filling that time at $0 greens fee with a $18/pp cart fee generates $72 of revenue for me or $12-$16 for pull carts I would have never seen.  My carts are leased for 7-8 months so they are a more or less fixed cost; why wouldn't I want to do this?


The same is true on the F&B side....these extra players will spend something on a fountain drink, Gatorade or hopefully a draft beer when done.....the mark-up is 4x on these items, driving my F&B line.


Are the barter times required to be prime time on weekdays/weekends or is this negotiable?


Am I missing something?

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2016, 02:21:20 PM »
Bruce - The only thing your missing is why use a third party and give away a % and that the barter times are sold without your control at a hotdeal price and you get zero destroying your price integrity. These systems do not cost much to buy out-right.


The golfers will come to your own website, look at the prices and book. If you have online tee times open to everyone to book and play better, but just a good display of prices is all it takes.


In the UK the vast majority of courses that have aligned to golfnow or teeofftimes are the cheaper poorer courses. Good.


I accept each time lost is a green fee lost, but by the same time I would rather do 20,000 rounds at $50 than 40,000 rounds at $25. Cheap people don't spend much in the upsale.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 02:24:16 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2016, 03:30:45 PM »
Bruce--


One thing to note here is that barter rounds are inclusive of cart fees--so the course is not generating any cart fee revenue off the barter rounds at all. As far as the F&B side goes--a common complaint I heard was that barter round golfers tend to spend little to no money at the golf course. They have been described to me as the guys who hide beer in their golf bag, bring their own sandwiches and essentially do all they can do to not spend a dime on-property.


I am sure this doesn't describe all of the barter round golfers. It may not even describe the majority of the barter round golfers--but it is the kind of feedback I heard about the barter round players. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but I heard it enough that it's hard to ignore.


To answer your other question--no, there is generally no requirement that the barter times have to be during peak times. This is why you see so many of the barter rounds stacked in the one or two slots before a rate break (e.g. the one or two times before twilight).


The "unused tee time" argument (to me) always felt a bit deceptive any time I would make it. It may well be that you are leveraging an underutilized tee time in exchange for the services provided by GolfNow, but that tee time is generally underused because it is the least ideal time offered within that particular price bucket. If my rates are $40 from 10AM to 2PM but drop to $25 at 2PM--is it that big a surprise that the 1:50 PM time goes unsold most of the time? Who wouldn't wait the 10 minutes to save the $15?


Where a course gets into trouble is when the guy that used to pay the course $40 at 12:50 decides to wait until 1:50 to pay GolfNow $14 and the course $0. Assuming $10 of on-site spend, that's a guy that used to be a $50 revenue generator to the course who has turned into a $10 revenue generator for the course. The problem gets worse if this guy decides he's now done paying $40 for Course XYZ and will instead just continue troll the bargain bin to get the barter time whenever possible.


To me, it's something of a fallacy to limit the calculation to "the course used to make $0 at 1:50 and now continues to make $0 but with some potential for on-site spend." Revenue cannot be looked at on an individual time basis--we would try to train our courses to look at REVPAR/REVPATT (revenue per available round, per available tee time). If you are moving customers from paid times earlier in the day to barter rounds later in the day you are adversely impacting both of those metrics--even if the "net" on the 1:50 PM time is still $0 vs $0.


This isn't to say that GolfNow can't be worthwhile for some operators--I had a ton who loved every minute of working with GolfNow and felt like it was mission critical to the survival of their business. I also (personally) think it's a great competitive tool--the discount hunter is a customer type that is not going away and there are courses who rightfully don't think it a good strategy to turn their backs on this group of golfers. Why not get in the game and out-compete the course down the street by capturing more of that audience than they do?


It's an individual choice for each operator. Some see the value and think they are making a reasonable trade. Others feel like despite GolfNow being the demise of the industry as a whole they have to do it because they have no choice. Kind of like being a liquor distributor in Chicago during Prohibition--paying the Mafia exorbitant prices for protection because you have to and not because you want to. (In case you can't tell--I just watched the movie The Untouchables.)

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2016, 07:46:53 PM »
Adrian:


The system may make sense for a small one off mom-and-pop but no one with any scalability.  Discounting on your own site is great but the customer needs to find it....GolfNow allows the customer to perhaps locate a "diamond in the rough".


Sam:

I didn't know there was no cart revenue - that frankly stinks and would turn me off since both Adrian & you are spot on that these customers are likely the bottom of the barrel folks who will sneak on their own beer and snacks.


Its always nice to discuss these nuances of operations with folks who are in the business.


Cheers,


BK

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2016, 08:43:17 PM »
Bruce,
I find that GN makes a golf a commodity and breaks down any loyalty a public facility has from players.  I dropped them and have not looked back.   The same group purchased the same tee time each day and when we stopped I got a rahter lengthy letter calling me an SOB for making it where someone like themselves could not afford to play.  Haven't seen them since.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2016, 10:53:29 PM »
Bruce,
I find that GN makes a golf a commodity and breaks down any loyalty a public facility has from players.

Mike, that's pretty much the crux of it. I find a welcoming smile and a brief golf conversation makes more money than any third-party tee time service could ever provide.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2016, 07:55:59 AM »
What amazes me is that there's 135 million to be gleaned from a shrinking industry by arguably adding no net golfers.


If I were a course operator I'd drop them and point to the video.
Followed by the words "sue me"


I think this marks the beginning of the end for Golf Now
Operators may have been looking for reason to get out and an insulting slap in the face is pretty good incentive
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2016, 12:25:42 PM »
Bruce,
I find that GN makes a golf a commodity and breaks down any loyalty a public facility has from players.  I dropped them and have not looked back.   The same group purchased the same tee time each day and when we stopped I got a rahter lengthy letter calling me an SOB for making it where someone like themselves could not afford to play.  Haven't seen them since.


Mike
Would Golf Now tell you how much they were selling the round for?
Would that price vary - shouldn't it have increased to find the optimum price for the group that left?


The barter round costs the owner $, it isn't a free round.
As an owner you pay the cart expense and also lose the value of the customer's data, if you don't get to see it.


Thank you for sharing
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2016, 03:09:46 PM »
Bruce,
I find that GN makes a golf a commodity and breaks down any loyalty a public facility has from players.  I dropped them and have not looked back.   The same group purchased the same tee time each day and when we stopped I got a rahter lengthy letter calling me an SOB for making it where someone like themselves could not afford to play.  Haven't seen them since.


Mike
Would Golf Now tell you how much they were selling the round for?
Would that price vary - shouldn't it have increased to find the optimum price for the group that left?


The barter round costs the owner $, it isn't a free round.
As an owner you pay the cart expense and also lose the value of the customer's data, if you don't get to see it.


Thank you for sharing

Mike,
It is possible to ask for a minimum pricing on the barter rounds but not all ask for it or realize it is needed until they have signed the deal.  Yes, they could vary it as they pleased.  The sales people are pushed to unload the trade rounds.  That is the model.  It is not good for golf.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"