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Joe Schackman

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How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« on: July 13, 2016, 01:31:18 PM »
Interesting piece in Golf Digest about the bidding process to design and build the Olympic course:

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-gil-hanse-beat-jack-nicklaus-greg-norman-and-gary-player-for-the-rio-job

PCCraig

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2016, 03:29:54 PM »
Very interesting, indeed. I think Tom Doak's idea of two long holes being converted to a 9-hole Jr. course is/was a neat one. But frankly I'm mostly just glad they didn't go with Player (five lakes and an artificial Olympic rings?) or Nicklaus/Norman type. Regardless of who won in if Golf will be an Olympic bust, the selection process is still fascinating. What other potential course could get so many big names in architecture waiting in a lobby to pitch for just 45 min? That being said, I can totally understand how a company like C&C would say "Thanks, but no thanks."
H.P.S.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2016, 03:54:54 PM »
Great read
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Joshua Pettit

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 05:09:01 PM »
I particularly enjoyed the bit about Nicklaus waiving his design fee and it backfiring.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 05:33:56 PM by Joshua Pettit »
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Pete_Pittock

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2016, 05:25:18 PM »
I particularly enjoyed the bit about Nicklaus waving his design fee and it backfiring.
too bad he didn't waive his design fee

John McCarthy

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 06:38:37 PM »
"This is the Olympics,” the person said. “You have to abide by the rules in the Olympics.”

Tell that to Roy Jones Jr.  Or the 1972 US Men's Basketball team.  Or the East German female swimmers.  Or the organizers of the Sochi Games. 
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 07:03:27 PM »
I read the article as saying that Hanse cheated by bringing in an extra witness on the video. Almost enough to make a guy happy that the Olympics is a bust resulting in this loss leader of a job doing more to harm his career than help it. You can't win for losing when you dip your toe in political waters.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 07:10:53 PM »

"As with the other presentations, Hanse was limited to 45 minutes and no more than three speakers."
Hanse + Alcott + Fay = Three.

How is this cheating?


I missed Larkin. Should do my due diligence. Apologies to John.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 08:48:30 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 07:13:16 PM »

"As with the other presentations, Hanse was limited to 45 minutes and no more than three speakers."
Hanse + Alcott + Fay = Three.

How is this cheating?


You missed Larkin.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 07:25:14 PM »
Only because RoMo came on here in bold letters accusing of making this stuff up here is a quote from the article. Make up your own minds.


After Tuesday lunch came Hanse Golf Course Design Inc. As with the other presentations, Hanse was limited to 45 minutes and no more than three speakers. He explained that his inspiration for his design on Rio’s sandy site were the courses found in the Sandbelt around Melbourne, Australia. (Hanse had never been to Australia; he would first visit Melbourne the next winter.) Alcott spoke on her grass-roots introduction to golf and her passion for growing the game, and Larkin on sustainability practices. To conclude, Hanse offered a short film. Former USGA executive director David Fay came on-screen and provided an enthusiastic endorsement of Hanse.
When other firms later learned of the Fay video, they cried foul. Fay was no off-the-street private citizen; he was the past joint secretary of the IGF with Peter Dawson. One observer called Fay “a thumb on the scale.” One suggested that Hanse should have been disqualified for exceeding the spirit of the three-presenter limit. “This is the Olympics,” the person said. “You have to abide by the rules in the Olympics.”


</blockquote>

Ian Andrew

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 08:11:59 PM »
The one aspect missing from the story was the severe timeline on providing a digital working drawing set + cost estimate to the committee as part of the pitch.

It was a ridiculous schedule ...

(this reminds me that I'm still owed a round of golf)
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 08:45:41 PM »
After The Olympics are complete, the non-disclosure agreement we all had to sign will no longer be binding, and we can all talk about the process if we want.  I doubt I'll have much to say, though. 


Everything that Ron learned was second-hand, so it is not 100% accurate, though the gist of it all is pretty close to what I know.  I have asked Ron to print a small retraction about something attributed to me.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 09:10:19 PM »
This is soon typical of the real world favoring insiders
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 09:46:38 PM »
After The Olympics are complete, the non-disclosure agreement we all had to sign will no longer be binding.

December 31, 2016

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2016, 01:08:30 AM »
I am glad all the delays and both political and social problems that cropped up still didn't stop a completed course. 

EVen now with all the news of top players deciding not to compete, I feel like we will get a good tournament for a reintroduction of golf to the Olys.  But, even it the play is interesting and a proper result demonstrates a winning player and team earned it with great golf on a good course, I fear golf may not catch on for the Olys.  It seems to me the very internal machinations and all that surrounds the Oly process is a precarious set of its own circumstances that can lead to disasters, both financially and in credibility that should insure the competitions are fair and have an ethic about them. 

Personally, I still feel like I'd rather see the best real amateurs compete, and leave the so-called dream teams comprised of all-star pros in hockey, basketball, etc., to play and provide the sports fans with their special brand of skill and competition within the major events of their respective sports, ie., golf majors, or Stanley Cup, World Cups, etc.  But, that is just me and I've been shot down many times suggesting that.  ::)

But as for the competition of golf course architects, it can't realistically be amateurs designing the course itself.  So, perhaps the same slick politics that seem to be always present in host city selections and all the rest of the greasy Oly political proceedings was inevitable in the GCA selection process.  Even though from the basic outline of this article, they more or less got it right and selected a great archie.  Nothing would surprise me however come the expiration of the non-disclosure term.  I think it was a career risk for Gil and the others in just getting caught up in all the precarious political atmosphere.  Had some of the crap that went on during construction and grow-in have caused the course to not be properly grown in and presentable, they'd have blamed the archie and not the innate screwed up politics and process of the local city, the Oly committees and all the rest.  So, break a leg Gil and hope it becomes a big success despite all obstacles that may have been in your way.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doug Bolls

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2016, 01:27:11 AM »
"Personally, I still feel like I'd rather see the best real amateurs compete, and leave the so-called dream teams comprised of all-star pros in hockey, basketball, etc., to play and provide the sports fans with their special brand of skill and competition within the major events of their respective sports, ie., golf majors, or Stanley Cup, World Cups, etc.  But, that is just me and I've been shot down many times suggesting that.  ::)"

I agree with this 100% - the Olympics should be the best of AMATEUR athletics.  I would love to see the best collegiate / amateur athletes in every sport.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2016, 09:40:43 AM »
After The Olympics are complete, the non-disclosure agreement we all had to sign will no longer be binding.

December 31, 2016


Really?  I hadn't looked back at the RFP for a long time.


That was probably the smartest thing they did in the whole process.  If the gag order lifted at the end of August, they might be savaged by people with an axe to grind.  By the end of the year, everyone will be tired of the subject.

BCrosby

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2016, 10:24:37 AM »
I have no way of knowing if Whitten's account is accurate, but Dawson's dislike of Tom Doak's plan was interesting. ;) 


Bob

Steve Lang

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2016, 10:25:45 AM »
 8)   ... another freaking video at play, for the rules mavens, that is, what would they do without it?...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tommy Naccarato

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2016, 04:31:44 PM »
After The Olympics are complete, the non-disclosure agreement we all had to sign will no longer be binding, and we can all talk about the process if we want.  I doubt I'll have much to say, though. 


Everything that Ron learned was second-hand, so it is not 100% accurate, though the gist of it all is pretty close to what I know.  I have asked Ron to print a small retraction about something attributed to me.


Professor Whitten needs to print more then one retraction. Several.


But this is no different then most of Ron's articles nowadays and it pains me to see a man that helped in my initial education of the subject, result to such fantastical, nonsensical journalism. Gil Hanse knew nothing until the moment he got the phone call congratulating him.  Up to that point, we had heard rumors that Thomson, Wolverine and Perret had hit a home run in their presentation.  My feelings were that Tom Doak and his excellent team had it sown up.


The desire of the entire Hanse/Olympic team strove for one thing: LEGACY-To create a great place for the best players in the world to compete in the 2016 Olympic games as well as growing the game in South America as a whole for the future.  A center for learning not only how to play, but also how to construct and maintain a golf course.  Time will tell if we succeeded in the latter, and it won't be because of lack of effort.


From my experience with the Olympics, here in Los Angeles in 1984, but was supposed to be both an Armageddon of traffic and terrorism with the 1972 Olympics still being fresh in our minds. Thanks to an Olympic effort by Peter Ueberroth who had the games more organized then any to date and beyond. The traffic was nonexistent and not a shred terrorism, producing a cache of money that crated an organization that is today called LA84 which not only provides funds for funding of kids sports, but also educates the masses.


For those that don't think Golf will be aided by the Olympics, well, much off this Golf Club Atlas website has profited with previous research used by many from LA84 and its massive collection of historical Golf magazines and newspapers.  The 1984 Summer Olympics is still the gift that keeps on giving for many of us into the history of Golf and its magnificent golf courses!







David_Elvins

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2016, 05:08:18 PM »

Nice post, Tommy.

Thomson, Wolverine and Perret

Golf needs more of these collaborations to appeal to the youth market. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2016, 10:35:23 PM »
Up to that point, we had heard rumors that Thomson, Wolverine and Perret had hit a home run in their presentation.


I wish I had thought to include Wolverine in my design team, instead of a politically-correct woman co-designer.  Wolverine would be more fitting for a Michigan company!  I don't know how the Aussies lost with him on their side.  :)

Tommy Naccarato

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2016, 03:05:08 AM »
We tried to get Rebecca Romajin-Stamos-O'Connell, but she was quite taken!  :) ;) :D ;D 8)


« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 03:11:06 AM by Tommy Naccarato »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2016, 09:31:48 AM »
Tommy,

I can't recall, but it seems from your pro Gil. legacy enhancing post, you had something to do with his presentation?  (BTW, I love the Gil choice and am pro Gil, too)

That said, none of your opinions after blasting Ron really back up your position on this article or Ron's other writing.....and the bits about the LA Olympics, while probably valid, sort of drift OT.  And, it doesn't read as if Gil knew he was the only one being filmed at the time, thus tipping him to the outcome, so it doesn't contradict your point about not knowing until the phone rang.

Again, I have no knowledge of Ron's article and its veracity.  As TD notes, of course it is second hand, since Ron wasn't in the presentations, as is most reporting.  That said, in comparison to the internet or this group, GD has pretty high standards (as most old line outlets do) and almost certainly wouldn't vet a "nonsensical" piece and then let it be printed. Whenever I have been quoted or mentioned in a GD article, the fact checking squad has called at least twice to make sure the article can be confirmed as factual. 

TD notes that its pretty accurate, although I understand the participants would all have minor quarrels with choices of wording, minor points, etc.  After all, a journalist has to take the quotes he is given, and still make a value judgement as to what they mean (as when he is writing of Gil and Tom's supposed reactions to working together, especially)

I have little knowledge of the process (I actually saw a copy of Gil's post email summary of how he thought the presentation went, through an industry source, but don't have a hard copy.)  From memory, he was upbeat and thought the reaction was favorable by the committee, although he thought his own environmentalist was a bit boring, long and off point.  The only rumors I recall was that one of the "Dark Horse" candidates wowed them with a presentation.  That actually sounds possible.  There have been many cases of this in design interviews in all fields, where the top dog sits on his laurels while the underdog works harder, takes chances, etc.   

Lastly, I too have heard from within the industry and some participants the hard feelings of losing a tough competition.  None of that sour grapes type stuff rings false to my ear.  In many such lower stakes competitions, many of my architect brethren express opinions that the winner had to have some dirty tricks or potentially ill gained inherent advantage up his sleeve, which is not our professions' best trait!  I have always felt that when I lose, its primarily my fault for not presenting myself well enough.  And, as my Dad always told me, you have to consider that the other guys are pretty good, and trying hard to win, too.

I have been in Tom's position of trying to propose something different, only to be shot down.  However, going in as the fifth of 8 firms that focus on the same thing is usually a prescription for losing in an interview, so you feel the pressure to try something, and it becomes an "all or nothing" kind of stake.  However, better to be shot down trying that being told "it was a close decision, but you finished second".  The reality in those presentations is that only 1 or 2 of the 8 were likely to stand out, and the others all sort of blend together in the reviewers minds, and never get any real consideration.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How Hanse won the Olympic Course Bid (Golf Digest)
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2016, 12:18:25 PM »
going in as the fifth of 8 firms that focus on the same thing is usually a prescription for losing in an interview, so you feel the pressure to try something, and it becomes an "all or nothing" kind of stake.  However, better to be shot down trying that being told "it was a close decision, but you finished second".  The reality in those presentations is that only 1 or 2 of the 8 were likely to stand out, and the others all sort of blend together in the reviewers minds, and never get any real consideration.


How about both?


Olympics aside, design competitions are bull**it.  There is inevitably a lot of politics happening behind the scenes, and some judges are going to have their favorites pre-selected.  If you don't think you have someone on your side, you'd be crazy to jump through all the hoops for a 20% chance at a job.[size=78%]  [/size]


And it's probably not really a 20% chance.  The last competition I went through, after we were told we'd finished second, I asked the lead guy at the end if my perception was right that the decision was always between us and one other firm, and the others who presented never really had a chance.  He agreed, and said that he'd actually been embarrassed how much work some of the other firms did on it, when they never really had a chance.  He said it kind of showed how desperate they were to get a job. 


That's when I made up my mind for good that I would follow Bill and Ben's lead, and never participate in a competition again.  The primary purpose of these competitions is to make it look like they considered everyone fairly, but I have never been in one [win or lose] that I thought was really a level playing field. And at the end of the day, I know my real value comes down to what we can do in the field ... so judging a competition based on a conceptual design is always going to overlook the part where we shine brightest.