Monty and Par 3's

[Joe Hellrung]

"There's never been a decent par-3 over 200 yards" - Colin Montgomerie, discussing the Postage Stamp at RT. 


As much as I've never been a fan of Monty, I can't disagree with him here.  That said, I'd be interested in hearing the counter-argument. 

[Kyle Harris]

16 at Cypress Point?

[Thomas Dai]

This matter has been discussed herein a few times.


I suggest the comment probably says more about Monty than it does about golf course architecture and par-3's in particular.


Atb

[Ken Moum]

I heard him say it and thought, "Bullshit!"

Virtually every course I have played that was built before WW2 has a par three over 200 yards, including the 20 or 30 nine-hole courses I grew up playing tournaments on.

And they required even the best players of the day to hit a wood.

My ho!e course, a Donald Ross had two par threes over 200  yards, one of which was 225 into the 1960s.

Today the regular tees are 167.

The PGA Tour pros rarely are tested by an approach shot that requires a !IMG iron or wood, except on par fives.

I think we need more 300-yard par threes.

K

[Tom_Doak]

Ken:


You name fifteen great par-3's over 200 yards, I'll take the under-200 contingent, and let's compare.


Under-200-yard par-3's, from volume 3 of The Confidential Guide:


167 y   Kittansett 3rd
175 y   Banff Springs 4th
195 y   National Golf Links 4th
187 y   CC of Buffalo 6th
136 y   Myopia Hunt C 9th


188 y   Winged Foot West 10th
148 y   Pacific Dunes 11th
158 y   Shinnecock Hills 11th
175 y   Essex County MA 11th
148 y   Maidstone 14th


138 y   Jasper Park 15th
155 y   Sleepy Hollow 16th
150 y   Sand Hills 17th
122 y   St. George's NY 17th
190 y   Garden City Golf Club 18th


Monty's quote was a bad exaggeration; there are certainly some great par-3's over 200 yards.  There should be one on every course.  But not three or four, like you see on a lot of modern courses.  One is probably plenty.  I think that's what he was trying to say.

[Adam Lawrence]

Tom


No offence, but why would you conclude that Monty meant what you say rather than what he actually said?

[Sean_A]

I am sure Monty is making a point with such a drastic statement....nobody could be that stupid and I have no reason to believe Monty is an exception.  I don't know of many truly great 200+ yard par 3s.  I recall a list not long ago and I didn't agree with many of the choices as great.  Lots of time when I see great land for a par 3 I think its a shame because it could be the backhalf of a great par 4 


All that said... a course with one of the best set of 3s I know...maybe THE best...has an awesome short hole at 202...Painswick's 6th.  I am not sure there is a better long 3 on the planet.


Burnside's 14th is very, very good as well.


Ciao

[Sam Krume]

maybe the 13th at The Ad...as described by a certain Mr Longhurst...but lets not get into what that person said on tv, I will not waste another second of my life on the rather large breasted man.

[Matthew Rose]

All I know is I enjoy courses more when the par threes are all vastly different, in length and in style. Hitting a 5-iron four times isn't very interesting.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom


No offence, but why would you conclude that Monty meant what you say rather than what he actually said?

Well, he may have meant it, but the context was a discussion of the Postage Stamp at Troon -- where his father had worked -- so I thought his statement was more a bit of hyperbole.  If he'd said the same thing in a press conference at Cypress Point, or The Addington, I would have believed he meant it literally.

[JWinick]

What about the Calamity hole at Portrush?  Will be 230 from the tips. 

I am sure Monty is making a point with such a drastic statement....nobody could be that stupid and I have no reason to believe Monty is an exception.  I don't know of many truly great 200+ yard par 3s.  I recall a list not long ago and I didn't agree with many of the choices as great.  Lots of time when I see great land for a par 3 I think its a shame because it could be the backhalf of a great par 4 


All that said... a course with one of the best set of 3s I know...maybe THE best...has an awesome short hole at 202...Painswick's 6th.  I am not sure there is a better long 3 on the planet.


Burnside's 14th is very, very good as well.


Ciao

[Ken Moum]

Mr. Doak... 😁

I am NOT even going to attempt that task.

But I  my defense, I am really offended by all the whining I hear from pros any time they have to hit a hybrid or wood to a par three.

They don't like Mike Davis? Their lucky I'm not setting up courses. I'd change all those "drivable" par fours to par threes on the card.

Just to f___k with their heads.

If they're so weak minded that they can't handle a hole that changes from five to a four and back, imagine what hitting a driver on a par three would do.

K

[James Brown]

Ken:


You name fifteen great par-3's over 200 yards, I'll take the under-200 contingent, and let's compare.


Under-200-yard par-3's, from volume 3 of The Confidential Guide:


167 y   Kittansett 3rd
175 y   Banff Springs 4th
195 y   National Golf Links 4th
187 y   CC of Buffalo 6th
136 y   Myopia Hunt C 9th


188 y   Winged Foot West 10th
148 y   Pacific Dunes 11th
158 y   Shinnecock Hills 11th
175 y   Essex County MA 11th
148 y   Maidstone 14th


138 y   Jasper Park 15th
155 y   Sleepy Hollow 16th
150 y   Sand Hills 17th
122 y   St. George's NY 17th
190 y   Garden City Golf Club 18th


Monty's quote was a bad exaggeration; there are certainly some great par-3's over 200 yards.  There should be one on every course.  But not three or four, like you see on a lot of modern courses.  One is probably plenty.  I think that's what he was trying to say.

I think every course should have one great long par three where I would swing flat out with a hybrid. 



I'm gonna take a crack at this one:


238 y   Yale 9th
240 y   Augusta 4th
215 y   Pebble 17th
238 y   Pine Valley 5th
222 y   Cypress 16th


209 y    Pacific Dunes 17th
207 y    Bethpage Black 17th
212 y    Kingsbarns 15th
240 y    Royal St. George's 11th
236 y    Carnoustie 16th


238 y    Turnberry 9th (new)
217 y    Sunningdale New 10th
236 y    Merion 17th
201 y    Royal Melbourne West 16th
240 y    Port Royal, Bermuda 16th


I'll also mention that my caddie at Bandon Trails mentioned you were staking out another par 3 course at Bandon that was all long par threes? 

[Tom_Doak]

I think every course should have one great long par three where I would swing flat out with a hybrid. 

I'm gonna take a crack at this one:


238 y   Yale 9th
240 y   Augusta 4th
215 y   Pebble 17th
238 y   Pine Valley 5th
222 y   Cypress 16th


209 y    Pacific Dunes 17th
207 y    Bethpage Black 17th
212 y    Kingsbarns 15th
240 y    Royal St. George's 11th
236 y    Carnoustie 16th


238 y    Turnberry 9th (new)
217 y    Sunningdale New 10th
236 y    Merion 17th
201 y    Royal Melbourne West 16th
240 y    Port Royal, Bermuda 16th


I'll also mention that my caddie at Bandon Trails mentioned you were staking out another par 3 course at Bandon that was all long par threes?

James:


That's a decent list, but you included the entire world ... only five of the fifteen holes you listed are in the northern U.S. and Canada, the same subset I picked from.  I never said I thought every par-3 should be under 200 yards, but I think I've got you outnumbered.


As for your caddie in Bandon, he needs to get his rangefinder out there.  We've staked out 11 holes.  They're longer than the holes at Bandon Preserve -- they are all holes you might expect to find on one of the big courses -- but unless you decide to play over the top of one green to the next one, the shortest is 85 yards and the longest of them is 180 yards 

[James Brown]

I think every course should have one great long par three where I would swing flat out with a hybrid. 

I'm gonna take a crack at this one:


238 y   Yale 9th
240 y   Augusta 4th
215 y   Pebble 17th
238 y   Pine Valley 5th
222 y   Cypress 16th


209 y    Pacific Dunes 17th
207 y    Bethpage Black 17th
212 y    Kingsbarns 15th
240 y    Royal St. George's 11th
236 y    Carnoustie 16th


238 y    Turnberry 9th (new)
217 y    Sunningdale New 10th
236 y    Merion 17th
201 y    Royal Melbourne West 16th
240 y    Port Royal, Bermuda 16th


I'll also mention that my caddie at Bandon Trails mentioned you were staking out another par 3 course at Bandon that was all long par threes?

James:


That's a decent list, but you included the entire world ... only five of the fifteen holes you listed are in the northern U.S. and Canada, the same subset I picked from.  I never said I thought every par-3 should be under 200 yards, but I think I've got you outnumbered.


As for your caddie in Bandon, he needs to get his rangefinder out there.  We've staked out 11 holes.  They're longer than the holes at Bandon Preserve -- they are all holes you might expect to find on one of the big courses -- but unless you decide to play over the top of one green to the next one, the shortest is 85 yards and the longest of them is 180 yards 

No doubt good short par 3s vast outnumber good long ones in general.  Looking at everything between 80 and  200 is stacking the deck as well, as there are few holes over 250.  I bet if you looked at 200-250 compared to 100-150, it would be much closer.  For every Postage Stamp wedge hole I bet there might be a great 3 iron hole. 

[Pete_Pittock]

I'd add the 13th at Mid Ocean, the 238 y. biarritz

[Sean_A]

What about the Calamity hole at Portrush?  Will be 230 from the tips. 

I am sure Monty is making a point with such a drastic statement....nobody could be that stupid and I have no reason to believe Monty is an exception.  I don't know of many truly great 200+ yard par 3s.  I recall a list not long ago and I didn't agree with many of the choices as great.  Lots of time when I see great land for a par 3 I think its a shame because it could be the backhalf of a great par 4 


All that said... a course with one of the best set of 3s I know...maybe THE best...has an awesome short hole at 202...Painswick's 6th.  I am not sure there is a better long 3 on the planet.


Burnside's 14th is very, very good as well.


Ciao

JW


Yes, Calamity Corner would make my list as great, but none of James' UK picks would make my list with the exception of Turnberry...don't know it. In fact, Sandwich's 11th I woud say is quite ordinary.


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

-- but unless you decide to play over the top of one green to the next one

...and golf enters the combat age!


...isn't that how Sheep Ranch plays?


...how to keep golf relevant for youth~

[Bill_McBride]

I am sure Monty is making a point with such a drastic statement....nobody could be that stupid and I have no reason to believe Monty is an exception.  I don't know of many truly great 200+ yard par 3s.  I recall a list not long ago and I didn't agree with many of the choices as great.  Lots of time when I see great land for a par 3 I think its a shame because it could be the backhalf of a great par 4 


All that said... a course with one of the best set of 3s I know...maybe THE best...has an awesome short hole at 202...Painswick's 6th.  I am not sure there is a better long 3 on the planet.


Burnside's 14th is very, very good as well.


Ciao

Painswick's 6th hole, "Beacon," was one of Henry Longhurst's top holes of Great Britain.  It really is fun to play with the various options. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Here's a listing from Buffalo-Niagara alone, including our friends across the ditch in Ontario

#8 CCBuffalo - 237 tips
#9 Cherry Hill - 207 tips
#8 Lookout Point - 175 tips (straight uphill-plays 201)
#5 Park Club - 210 tips
#10 Orchard Park - 227 tips


#15 Wanakah - 207 tips
#4 East Aurora - 235 tips
#7 Niagara Falls (USA) - 210 tips
#7 & #12 Seneca Hickory Stick - both around 215 tips


#9 Transit Valley - 235 tips
#8 River Oaks - 225 tips
#15 Brookfield - 226 tips
#3 Diamond Hawk - 230 tips
#15 Brierwood - 2-6 tips


All of these would qualify as "decent" or better by my standards. Not sure of the rigor of Monty's scale~

[Thomas Dai]

Some others to ponder -


16th at Montrose
5th at Anstruther
3rd at Royal Aberdeen
15th at Cruden Bay
17th at St Enodoc
......
......
Atb

[Don Hyslop]

The great Canadian architect Stanley Thompson enjoyed putting in a 200+ yard Par 3 on many of his courses.
1. 9th hole Jasper- 231 yds- nicknamed Cleopatra
2. 12 hole Highland Links, Cape Breton- 240yds
3. 10th hole, Banff- 218yds
4. 14th hole Digby Pines, N.S.-  207 yds
5. St. George's has 4 that are 200 yds or more #3- 208 yds,  #8- 215yds, #13-203 yds, #16-204yds.
Sunningdale has 2 that are 200 yds or over and you could go on about his courses.

[Sean_A]

Some others to ponder -


16th at Montrose
5th at Anstruther
3rd at Royal Aberdeen
15th at Cruden Bay
17th at St Enodoc
......
......
Atb

16 Montrose...Si!


Ciao

[Joe McCormac]

St. Louis Country Club has back-to-back par 3's (number's 2 & 3) which are both over 200 yards and both superb.  The 2nd hole has a biarritz green and the 3rd seems unique to other MacDonald/Raynor template holes.

[Tim Gallant]

Some others to ponder -


16th at Montrose
5th at Anstruther
3rd at Royal Aberdeen
15th at Cruden Bay
17th at St Enodoc
......
......
Atb

16 Montrose...Si!


Ciao

+1; was the only green on the course that I thought had any interest.