On Player-Designers

[Nick_Faldo]

While they're unlikely to say so, a few player-designers aren't overly interested in course design. They treat it as little more than an endorsement opportunity.

I would still contend that most player-designers are genuinely interested and...more than a handful of us are truly passionate about it.

Of course, being passionate about something is one thing while being able to contribute in a meaningful way to the final product can be another matter altogether. To achieve success, I think the first thing a P.D. needs to be is a realist. The distinction between a P.D. and a golf course architect is an important one, though it is seldom discussed.

...unless the P.D. works closely with a first-rate golf course architect, there is little or no chance that a first-rate product will emerge.

A P.D. should be able to contribute first-hand experience of the world's finest courses...As for specific input, it is guided by a fundamental belief that I have stated often: The best golf courses in the world are invariably the most strategically interesting layouts as well. These are courses that, tee to green, continually stir your imagination and (whatever your skill level) challenge and encourage you to play your best golf.

[Nigel_Walton]

Wise words Nick. But do you really believe that tour players do get to experience the world's finest courses anymore?

[Brian Phillips]

Dear Nick,

I am nieve enough to hope that this is the real and would lie to ask a question about how much credit a P.D. should get on a design.

You are involved in a number of projects with your input but your fellow associates do not receive any little recognition for their input, do feel this is fair?

I would also agree with Nigel that the world's best golfers do NOT play on the world's best golf courses such as Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Royal Dornoch etc. and it is the true architect or lover of architecture that makes the effort to not only play but also to discuss and analyse these courses in detail.

How many golf courses being in the world these days need an opinion from a P.D? What does a P.D know about the average player apart from the weekly Pro Am which most of you hate.

Brian

[Scott_Burroughs]

Brian,

FYI, Nick has played Sand Hills (twice in a day, as is M.O. there).  It would not surprise me if he's also played Dornoch.

He wrote (or had ghost-written) an article in Links a couple of years ago, noting that he hadn't played but one of the U.S.'s (or World's, I forget) Top 10 at the time, Merion.  So he made a point to see it too further his education (and played with Gil Hanse and Tom Paul there!).

I, too, would much like this to be the real Nick.

[Brian_Ewen]

Scott

Totally agree , Faldo goes out of his way to see courses .

I doubt this is actaully him as he has never answered one e-mail I have sent him over the years , asking questions on designs of his that I have played .
Anyway it is his words as the article is on Linksmagazine's website .

Brian

[Joel_Stewart]

Be serious, who thinks Nick Faldo is going to access this site and make his first post a topic?

Faldo does go out of his way to play courses and his trip to Sand Hills is well known.  He shows up the first day with no wind and shoots 67.  He's bragging at dinner and telling everyone he is going to go really low the next day.

He wakes up the next day and the wind is blowing 40 miles per hour.  He makes a hole in one on 13 with a driver and shoots the same 67.  

[cary lichtenstein]

This thread should be deleted. This is an imposter.

[Jeff Fortson]

Nick,

What did you say to Greg Norman on #18 at the '96 Masters?
 

I couldn't pass the opportunity up.

Jeff F.

[Tyler Kearns]

Joel,

    I just read the old issue of Links in which relates his journey to Sand Hills; and he actually shot 66-66. Not a bad little weekend!

Tyler Kearns

[SPDB]

Faldo would have had to have hustled to a computer to get this post in, considering he probably finished up his round at The Dunhill shortly before 9:45 EDT, the moment the msg was posted.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Faldo would have had to have hustled to a computer to get this post in, considering he probably finished up his round at The Dunhill shortly before 9:45 EDT, the moment the msg was posted.

Makes sense, all he had to do was cut, paste and edit a bit from his article of the same title on the Links Mag website.  

[Tyler Kearns]

SPDB,

    Quite the slewth. Good investigation, an imposteur has been detected. GCA saved!

Tyler Kearns

[SteveTL]

Jeff,

I heard that he told Greg "...ya know, it IS tough to play this game with both hands around your neck."

[Jim_Michaels]

obviously faldo didn't post this himself, but they are his words. i think he is kinda full of it, myself.

[TEPaul]

I hope this is Nick Faldo--it sure sounds like the Nick Faldo I talked to at Merion a couple of summers ago--and if that wasn't the real Nick Faldo--whoever it was gave a really good imitation of Faldo--including his golf game.

I was very impressed by Nick Faldo's take on architecture--classic architecture and also very much the subject of strategy in architecture. But the thing that really impressed me about him is his true ability to visualize a golf course and the realities of its strategies for ALL golfers and to visualize that extremely intelligently.

I thought that was pretty amazing coming through the eyes of a tour pro--but one should remember that Faldo just may be one of the most thoughtful and intelligent course managers of modern times--maybe of all time. If that doesn't make him a natural strategist I can't imagine why not. And clearly that would make him a natural at picking up all things architecture in relation to strategy.

But the thing about Faldo that apparently makes him a perfect example of someone who can realistically apply architecture to ALL levels of golfers is he happens to be the most observant person I've ever seen of the swings and the abilities (or lack of them) of any golfer within his view.

Everybody knows Faldo is a swing and swing physics fanatic and his ability to observe others and their strengths and limitations I think is a tremendous asset to an architect that he may be working with. He has an uncanny knack of watching the practice swing, for instance, of someone (anyone) he's never seen before and telling you just about what kind of shot that person will hit before he hits it!

You know the way some people say that tour pros look at architecture through ONLY their own "tour pro game" eyes? Well, Faldo can surely do that as well as anyone but he has the ability to look at golf and architecture through the eyes of ALL other levels too. Or I should probably say he has the ability to look at architecture in a way that other levels SHOULD LOOK AT architecture (and strategy)!

I believe that alone is an extremely valuable asset that Nick Faldo may uniquely possess when it comes to architecture!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I understand that Faldo has signed on to do a course near Prairie Dunes called Cottonwood Hills.  They have a website.

The interesting thing is that he is teaming with an unknown KC architect to design it, whom I understand was an assistant for a local architect there and is now on his own, but without much experience.

Granted, this architect could be the next great one.  And I hate to sound hypocritical, because 15 years ago, Larry Nelson picked a young unknown architect to help him on his first ventures into course design.

Although I know nothing about this young designer, I have to ask how this decision jives with Faldos public proclamation of working with the best?  And, can they get the most out of what would likely be a great site with an architect doing his first course?  I hope so, because it could be a great course.

Time, as they say on the six o'clock news, will tell.......

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff B and others, don't you think that the results of P-Ds hooking up with a competent constructor is wholy dependent on the level of commitment of the PD to study and learn the nuts and bolts of the construction side.  

Players have down time.  They can spend a great deal of time on site and learning the realities of construction and limitations of translation of design ideas to the conditions of the site on the ground.  Or, they can treat it like any other endorsement.  Just like anyone else in any other walk of life, you will have your students of the subject who really do the work needed to fully understand and do quality work, and you will have your slackers that just sign the papers and do nothing while making a nice check.  

Ben Crenshaw is clearly the student and pursues the subject in earnest.  Why can't Nick Faldo be thought of as the same earnest designer?  Nick has written well on the subject for years now in Links.  And, let's be real about how many great courses a fellow of Nick's stature and longevity has experienced.  Cripes sakes, the man probably had played more storied and legendary courses before he was out of his teens than most of the critics here on GCA have played.  I welcome the more serious students of the architecture of the game who are players, as Nick appears to me to be one.  Davis might also be heading in that direction.  However, Fuzzy Zoeller or Phil Michelson as Player-Designers leaves a great deal to ridicule...

Tom Paul, good reply...

[ian]

I believe he has the passion, but you need the time too.

He made "one visit" to The Rock (north of Toronto), how can that possibly contribute to great architecture. Like most playing designers, they need to wait till they have the time to participate in the process. Playing with the owners and doing press conferences do not make good golf holes. Time on site does.

[Jeff Fortson]

Mr. Andrews,

I couldn't agree more re: time spent on site.



Everyone else,

You got it all wrong this isn't Nick Faldo posting.  It's his movie double, Harrison Ford.

Jeff F.

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ,

So you're saying how do we know he didn't read up a lot on his own?  Go ahead and call me cynical.....

However, based on my experience with pros I know, I say they don't have that much down time to studiously look into architecture, and of course, nothing, (as I constantly hear on this site) beats getting out on site and really learning the business!  How would a pro be different?

I'm also interested in your distinction of "hooking up with a competent constructor" instead of a "top flight architect" as he suggests in the Links article?   Are you suggesting that with an LUI or Wadsworth, Faldo's course would simply design itself?  Or for Nick, would you give him a "free pass" at putting out some concept sketches (if he could even do that) and letting a shaper build it on a great site when generally I think you would agree that to "get it right" the architect must stay on site a lot?

You need an architect and contractor (who may be with the same company) for all the perspectives necessary to do a good course, much less a great one.

Again, maybe I'm wrong about Nick Faldo, and I hope I am.  But, his ghost writer can do great wordsmithing in Links Magazine, and that doesn't especially mean anything about his design ability or committment.  He can also say, with all earnestness in person that "He's seen more of the great courses than anyone" but that may not translate into architectural skill.  They all say that, but only in a few does it really translate.  Golf skill is so completely different than design skill, there shouldn't be any expectation that it would.

Sorry for the rant.  I'm showing my BIAS for agreeing with what Nick wrote, that players need to team with the best architects.  That he has jumped around to different architects, tells me, based on my similar experiences, that it may be more of an endorsement deal than you give him credit for.

Not, as Seinfeld might say, that there's anything wrong with that!

[George Pazin]

However, based on my experience with pros I know, I say they don't have that much down time to studiously look into architecture, and of course, nothing, (as I constantly hear on this site) beats getting out on site and really learning the business!  How would a pro be different?

Jeff -

I agree with so much of what you post, but I think you're wrong on this one. Not much down time for a golf pro? Lordy, what, do you think all of us on this board are justing sitting around in our pajamas, posting & drinking?   You'll never convince me that a tour pro doesn't have enough time to learn something about the trade if it's something he desires to get into.

I'm a firm believer in caveat emptor, so I don't really care about the pseudo designing/endorsment thing, but if someone asks me to take him seriously, I expect a little effort on his part.

[Jeff_Brauer]

"Lordy, what, do you think all of us on this board are justing sitting around in our pajamas, posting & drinking? "

George,

Until Tom Paul set me straight, my image was that posters were  "sitting around in our pajamas, posting & eating corn flakes."  It didn't occur to me that so many would be drinking at such odd hours of the day.

I should probably say the only reason this bothers me at all is that I read that article, and learned of the design team method the same week.  Seeing the two so close together made me question whether Faldo was sincere, and I truly hope he is.  I have heard other, similar reports that he is one of the passionate ones about design.

[Brian_Ewen]

Nick
Sorry for hi-jacking your post but ,

I really am interested in how many posters here have played a Nick Faldo designed Golf Course .

Brian

[RJ_Daley]

Until Tom Paul set me straight, my image was that posters were  "sitting around in our pajamas, posting & eating corn flakes."  It didn't occur to me that so many would be drinking at such odd hours of the day.

Jeff, you leave me to wonder what goes better with corn flakes, white or red?

Jeff, you ask about the nature of an association of a PD with the likes of a Wadsworth or LU sort of a firm, which I think of as construction more stictly by the plan-document process.  But, what if a guy like Faldo got hooked up with a crew like Bunkerhill or some of those confederation of constructors who are more onsite design-build and flexible in changes as they go?  They are primarily constructors, yet have a solid foot into the design aspect too, without the focus on change orders and process.  I don't for a minute discount that if one is to become a serious PD, they have to put in a great deal of time to learn how design ideas and construction techniques interface.  But, I think that since you had been Prez of ASGCA you know better than most that there are fellows that use the term GCA who have not trained formally in a landscape archie school yet wear the tartan... some with distinction.  How did they get to that position of identity?  I suspect by putting in their time learning on their own, and building up a portfolio of work, slowly.  Why can't a pro devote his off-time of 25 or more years on tour to piecing together a body of knowledge of design-construction principles, as I think Faldo MAY have?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rj,

As you know, most ASGCA member have worked with a qualified ASGCA architect on at least five courses before becoming a member.  There are some who were not an apprentice somewhere, but worked/learnde on his own, but not just consulting, but really being responsible for the outcome of the actual work.  The way the work gets done - plans or field - doesn't count for anything in the membership process anymore.

My earlier point was precisely that it would be the construction guys (whoever it was) who would be considered the designers (frankly by most here) not a pro who has seen a lot of courses, shows up a half dozen times to make minor "tweaks" based on his playing all of the top 100 in competition, yada, yada, yada.  You can't show up every once in a while and design a golf course, IMHO.

It could very well be that Faldo is one of the great exceptions to the Player as Designer rule, I don't know.  I'm just saying that one glowing article and saying all the right things simply doesn't make that so!  And based on the overwhelming number of player designers who couldn't design their way out of their own golf bags, I prefer to remain skeptical until proven wrong.

In fact, I think the player who has done most to be a designer, bar none, is John Fought. I had the pleasure of co-designing a never realized project with him, and he truly thinks like an architect now.  He took an unpaid position (or low paid) with Bob Cupp doing field work to get into this field.

I doubt Faldo has done that.

As a Wisconsin Badger, I suspect you drink both red and white wine with your corn flakes, BTW.....