One Epic Ireland Trip!

[Rich Goodale]

I found the initial posts interesting in a voyeuristic way, wondering how somebody could hit all those Irish courses in sucha constrained time frame, but was astounded to check in and see that the thread had gone on so long, and with so little substance in the further content.  100+ posts full of sound and fury but signifying nothing, at least in terms of golf course architecture.


Sic transit gloria golf club atlas mundi

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich

Hope you're well. Have you checked out the "true" links thread? Be careful what you wish for.

[Rich Goodale]

Hi Mark


I saw the piffle about Elie being links/non-links, but was too depressed to enter that intellectual swamp.


Doubt if I have seen the "true links" thread, but if I had and forgotten, all the better.


All is well.  After 3 years of neglect and decline, my golf has stabilized and shows possibilities of improvement.  Sprog No. 1 is graduated, employed and well-paid in Sweden.  Sprog No. 2 made it through year i at Uni and is maturing faster than the embryos in the "Alien" series.  Josie is gearing down from Cisco "work" and I'm looking to buy a place in Florida this October.


Hope all is well with you, your golf and your family.


Rich

[JWinick]

Ok, here goes... This is very preliminary and total spur of the moment.   


1) Royal County Down
2) Oakmont
3) Fisher's Island
4) National Golf Links
5) Pacific Dunes
5) Shinnecock
6) Waterville
7) Old MacDonald
Bethpage Black
9) Potmarnock
10) Crystal Downs
11) Royal Portrush
12 Oakland Hills (South)
13 Lahinch
14 Olympia Fields (North)
15) Creek Club
16) Plainfield
17) Arominink
18) Inverness
19 Honors Course
20 Lookout Mountain
21 Ballybunion
22 Garden City
23 Victoria National
24 Bandon Dunes
25 Bandon Trails

JWinick, so post trip what's your world top 25? Bonus points for sharing your thinking eg if you use specific criteria.

Sounds like the trip made an impact.

[JWinick]

Rich,


I think this site jumped the shark about 5 years ago.   Still very entertaining, but we've exhausted most topics.


Jon

I found the initial posts interesting in a voyeuristic way, wondering how somebody could hit all those Irish courses in sucha constrained time frame, but was astounded to check in and see that the thread had gone on so long, and with so little substance in the further content.  100+ posts full of sound and fury but signifying nothing, at least in terms of golf course architecture.


Sic transit gloria golf club atlas mundi

[Andrew Simpson]

Windiest course ranked very low, how simple a ranking do you need!
[/size]SUV wasn't big enough then as first group off it took 4.5hrs,, says it all.
[/size]A shame it seems to be on such a simple scale and attacking those who disagree.
[/size]Please don't do a whistle stop tour of Scotland.

[JWinick]

Andrew,


When you act and comment in such an obnoxious and capricious way, I will respond accordingly.   It's much easier to attack what someone else does than get off your couch.  At least I'm honest about what I think and feel, not simply trying to appeal to the groupthink on this site.

[Ally Mcintosh]

For what it's worth, I've no problem with Ballybunion being rated 6 out of 6 on this trip.

Personally I'd have Waterville a little lower but the other 5 I could argue in any order on any given day.

As for Waterville, the Fazio changes were good, the grasses are now fescue, the site is fantastic, the bunkering strategic for the most part. It's an excellent course.

[JWinick]

Ally,


Forced ranking is like class ranking in a high school class.  What if it's one of the top schools or worst ones in the country?   The fact that anyone would go bonkers over me putting Ballybunion behind 5 other world class courses is beyond my comprehension.   


I guess the central argument is whether Ballybunion's exposure to the wind should be a negative, or we were just really unlucky that day.   I don't really have a definitive answer to that question, but I do believe that the other courses we played except Lahinch had better protection from the elements (i.e. estuaries, higher dunes, mountains, etc.)    I do think its a fair point of criticism because if you get praise for amazing views, shouldn't the possibility of excess exposure be considered?   


Jon

For what it's worth, I've no problem with Ballybunion being rated 6 out of 6 on this trip.

Personally I'd have Waterville a little lower but the other 5 I could argue in any order on any given day.

As for Waterville, the Fazio changes were good, the grasses are now fescue, the site is fantastic, the bunkering strategic for the most part. It's an excellent course.

[Tim Martin]

Seems that the OP can't get past the conditions he experienced at Ballybunion as far as giving the course it's due. Wonder if other courses on the trip would have been "marked down" as well if similar conditions arose?

[Sean_A]

Ally,


Forced ranking is like class ranking in a high school class.  What if it's one of the top schools or worst ones in the country?   The fact that anyone would go bonkers over me putting Ballybunion behind 5 other world class courses is beyond my comprehension.   


I guess the central argument is whether Ballybunion's exposure to the wind should be a negative, or we were just really unlucky that day.   I don't really have a definitive answer to that question, but I do believe that the other courses we played except Lahinch had better protection from the elements (i.e. estuaries, higher dunes, mountains, etc.)    I do think its a fair point of criticism because if you get praise for amazing views, shouldn't the possibility of excess exposure be considered?   


Jon

For what it's worth, I've no problem with Ballybunion being rated 6 out of 6 on this trip.

Personally I'd have Waterville a little lower but the other 5 I could argue in any order on any given day.

As for Waterville, the Fazio changes were good, the grasses are now fescue, the site is fantastic, the bunkering strategic for the most part. It's an excellent course.

J


You are the first person I ever heard knock a course due to how exposed it is to the elements without talking about how the architecture may or may not cope with the elements.  I can't say for certain if the wind is any worse at Ballyb than any other top Irish course, but I would be extremely surprised if this was shown to be the case beyond a marginal 1-3 mph average difference.  Personally, unless you produce evidence, I don't think your argument holds much water.  What would be far more interesting is your take on how well the design holds up when the wind hits. 


Ciao


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

If it weren't for the effects of the wind and consequential waves the sand dunes that the Ballybunion courses are built on wouldn't even be there. And if the wind was consistantly tooo strong those wanting to play at the location wouldn't have developed it there.
 
Atb

[Ed Brzezowski]

Well we played Ballybunion and Waterville in very heavy winds and it added to the overall difficulty of the round. Downwind there , for me, was no good way to judge the distance a well struck shot would go. Simply put a 235 yards six iron is beyond my comprehension.

At Waterville a drive hit with a 40mph cross wind did not move and inch and now is on the beach.

I love links golf but how to judge and play the wind is beyond me, it really is hit and hope. Which is kind of cool in a way.

[Tim Martin]

Ed-We were aiming at least 45 degrees left or right of the target at Ballybunion upon the advice of the caddies. Additionally when asking about compensating for shot shape we were advised it would have no effect. They were correct.

[Thomas Dai]

All over Ireland (and GB) caddies, locals, walkers and even canny visitors love finding new ProV1's in the rough and on the beach.
Atb

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ed-We were aiming at least 45 degrees left or right of the target at Ballybunion upon the advice of the caddies. Additionally when asking about compensating for shot shape we were advised it would have no effect. They were correct.

Which is very hard to believe, isn't it?  The flag is bent in half and a well struck shot does not budge. Our caddy told me to aim a  bit right and let the wind bring it back, not soo much in reality.
It was however a great experience. The blind holes at Lahinch were spectacular. The three closing at Ballybunion were great. And now my cap is going up, a great deal indeed.

ed

[Mark Smolens]

All over Ireland (and GB) caddies, locals, walkers and even canny visitors love finding new ProV1's in the rough and on the beach.
Atb

On a whirlwind visit to Scotland and Ireland in '91, one of the guys I was with brought 4 boxes of brand new Titleist Professionals. They were gone by the time we'd made the ferry ride to Belfast. The last four rounds he was hitting 5 iron off the tee (tho, to be fair he can really pound that 5 iron on a links fairway...

[Andrew Simpson]

Andrew,


When you act and comment in such an obnoxious and capricious way, I will respond accordingly.   It's much easier to attack what someone else does than get off your couch.  At least I'm honest about what I think and feel, not simply trying to appeal to the groupthink on this site.

LOL,

[Andrew Simpson]

Ally,


Forced ranking is like class ranking in a high school class.  What if it's one of the top schools or worst ones in the country?   The fact that anyone would go bonkers over me putting Ballybunion behind 5 other world class courses is beyond my comprehension.   


I guess the central argument is whether Ballybunion's exposure to the wind should be a negative, or we were just really unlucky that day.   I don't really have a definitive answer to that question, but I do believe that the other courses we played except Lahinch had better protection from the elements (i.e. estuaries, higher dunes, mountains, etc.)    I do think its a fair point of criticism because if you get praise for amazing views, shouldn't the possibility of excess exposure be considered?   


Jon

For what it's worth, I've no problem with Ballybunion being rated 6 out of 6 on this trip.

Personally I'd have Waterville a little lower but the other 5 I could argue in any order on any given day.

As for Waterville, the Fazio changes were good, the grasses are now fescue, the site is fantastic, the bunkering strategic for the most part. It's an excellent course.

You were not unlucky at BB, it gets windy in Ireland. It was windy the day you visited BB, it equally could have been windy at Wv or any other course you played, nothing to do with it being coastal or on an estuary. That's where your whole argument falls down, you are basing everything on very limited information and understanding. Nothing to do with the "Group View" as you like to put it, you simply have a lack of understanding other than your limited visit.
 I've no interest or idea where you live but if I visited for a week I'd never presume to know the weather pattern there based on such limited knowledge.

[Jon Wiggett]

Andrew Simpson,

he has played about a dozen links courses so there is nothing you or anyone else can know that he does not already fully understand. How dare you even question his judgement, it really is an affront to intelligence and as he says if you you act and comment in such an obnoxious and capricious way, he will respond accordingly. I hope you feel accordingly chastised.

Jon

[JWinick]

Actually, I'm not.   I have said repeatedly (but you don't seem to listen) that I based my rankings on one round and wondered whether it was indeed more exposed to the elements than other courses.   Other people I have asked have backed up my hypothesis, including our caddies at Ballybunion.   Despite all of this, Ballybunion is still in my top-25, which is hardly an insult.   

Ally,


Forced ranking is like class ranking in a high school class.  What if it's one of the top schools or worst ones in the country?   The fact that anyone would go bonkers over me putting Ballybunion behind 5 other world class courses is beyond my comprehension.   


I guess the central argument is whether Ballybunion's exposure to the wind should be a negative, or we were just really unlucky that day.   I don't really have a definitive answer to that question, but I do believe that the other courses we played except Lahinch had better protection from the elements (i.e. estuaries, higher dunes, mountains, etc.)    I do think its a fair point of criticism because if you get praise for amazing views, shouldn't the possibility of excess exposure be considered?   


Jon

For what it's worth, I've no problem with Ballybunion being rated 6 out of 6 on this trip.

Personally I'd have Waterville a little lower but the other 5 I could argue in any order on any given day.

As for Waterville, the Fazio changes were good, the grasses are now fescue, the site is fantastic, the bunkering strategic for the most part. It's an excellent course.

You were not unlucky at BB, it gets windy in Ireland. It was windy the day you visited BB, it equally could have been windy at Wv or any other course you played, nothing to do with it being coastal or on an estuary. That's where your whole argument falls down, you are basing everything on very limited information and understanding. Nothing to do with the "Group View" as you like to put it, you simply have a lack of understanding other than your limited visit.
 I've no interest or idea where you live but if I visited for a week I'd never presume to know the weather pattern there based on such limited knowledge.