One Epic Ireland Trip!

[David_Tepper]

Jon W. -

Repeating the question, how many courses in GB&I have you seen an played?

DT

[Garland Bayley]

Gayland,


Just so I am clear - you would take Fazio's opinion of Dye's work and vice-versa as completely unbiased?   I'm not suggesting that the bearer of the opinion is not qualified - just biased.


Jon

I find that there are highly accomplished people that can give unbiased opinions of others work. I find that when people think otherwise, it is more indicative of those peoples personality than of the reviewer they would assume is biased.

[JWinick]

About a dozen.

Jon W. -

Repeating the question, how many courses in GB&I have you seen an played?

DT

[JWinick]

Kudos to such a stunning degree of naivete!

Gayland,


Just so I am clear - you would take Fazio's opinion of Dye's work and vice-versa as completely unbiased?   I'm not suggesting that the bearer of the opinion is not qualified - just biased.


Jon

I find that there are highly accomplished people that can give unbiased opinions of others work. I find that when people think otherwise, it is more indicative of those peoples personality than of the reviewer they would assume is biased.

[David_Tepper]

"About a dozen."

That explains a lot.

[Chris Mavros]

I have found the thread interesting, as I'm planning a trip to Ireland next year with my wife and will be able to play a couple courses.  Figuring out where to play is the fun part and threads like this are helpful in getting real insight. 

[Garland Bayley]

Kudos to such a stunning degree of naivete!

Gayland,


Just so I am clear - you would take Fazio's opinion of Dye's work and vice-versa as completely unbiased?   I'm not suggesting that the bearer of the opinion is not qualified - just biased.


Jon

I find that there are highly accomplished people that can give unbiased opinions of others work. I find that when people think otherwise, it is more indicative of those peoples personality than of the reviewer they would assume is biased.

I find it interesting that your opinion of Ballybunion vs. Waterville is quite different than Tom Doak's. I also find it interesting that no one in this thread (that I have noticed) has mentioned the reviews in the Confidential Guide. I also find your statements here to be an implicit indictment of it being a biased tome.


And thanks for giving me the status of MP in the name spelling rankings.

[David_Tepper]

Chris Mavros -

Be sure to check out Stewart Abramson's current thread on golfing in Ireland as well:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63239.0.html

DT

[JWinick]

Garland,


An unintentional error on my part on the spelling of your name.  Anyway, how about Ran's opinion on Waterville?   


However, what is not nearly as well known or appreciated is the variety found within the course. It contains three superb one shot holes as well as another three excellent three shot holes. No other course in Ireland or the United Kingdom can make the same claim. In between, there is not a single indifferent two shot hole, which prompted Henry Cotton to remark, ‘I have never seen a more consistent succession of really strong and beautiful golf holes than here.’
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Kudos to such a stunning degree of naivete!

Gayland,


Just so I am clear - you would take Fazio's opinion of Dye's work and vice-versa as completely unbiased?   I'm not suggesting that the bearer of the opinion is not qualified - just biased.


Jon

I find that there are highly accomplished people that can give unbiased opinions of others work. I find that when people think otherwise, it is more indicative of those peoples personality than of the reviewer they would assume is biased.

I find it interesting that your opinion of Ballybunion vs. Waterville is quite different than Tom Doak's. I also find it interesting that no one in this thread (that I have noticed) has mentioned the reviews in the Confidential Guide. I also find your statements here to be an implicit indictment of it being a biased tome.


And thanks for giving me the status of MP in the name spelling rankings.

[JWinick]

David,


We are so lucky to have someone of your vast expertise.   Please continue to enlighten us.


Regards,
Jon

"About a dozen."

That explains a lot.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,


An unintentional error on my part on the spelling of your name.  Anyway, how about Ran's opinion on Waterville?   


However, what is not nearly as well known or appreciated is the variety found within the course. It contains three superb one shot holes as well as another three excellent three shot holes. No other course in Ireland or the United Kingdom can make the same claim. In between, there is not a single indifferent two shot hole, which prompted Henry Cotton to remark, ‘I have never seen a more consistent succession of really strong and beautiful golf holes than here.’

Ran seems to like six holes at Waterville. I note from evidence of his reviews he seems to have only played four courses in Ireland. Two of those are not so highly thought of as the ones you played.


As for the indifferent comment, it seems to me that often links courses don't have a single indifferent hole unless there is a situation like Royal North Devon where there has to be a transition from the club house to the links. (Or, they are Saunton East )


As for Henry Cotton, the criteria for a successful competition professional is often different than for the average golfer. I.e., Waterville is often cited as just being plain old hard!

[JWinick]

Garland,


Perhaps, we were lucky that the weather at Waterville was mild, but I do believe it is more shielded from the elements than Ballybunion or Lahinch because its on an estuary and surrounded by mountains.    I found Portrush and RCD to be more difficult.   I thought that Waterville had better fairway width than most of the courses we played.   


Jon

[Mark Pritchett]

Love it when someone disagrees with the GCA group think and then the herd challenges the person with the "how many______courses have you played question". 

[Charles Lund]

I haven't been involved in the discussion about rankings.  I also wrote words of encouragement for your trip and offered suggestions.

Confidential Guide Ratings:

RCD 9 10 9 10
RP  8 8 9 9
Ballybunion 10 9 10 9
Lahinch 8 9 9 8
Portmarnock 7 8 8 6
European Club - 7 7 6
Waterville 6 8 8 7
Island 6 7 6 6

I have no issue with your fondness for Waterville.  I played it twice on my first trip.  If I were back in the area, I would happily play it.  I return to many courses ranked 5 or 6 on the Doak scale and joined a club in Ireland with two courses ranked 5 and 6.  I play about 30 rounds a year on the two courses.  My decisions about where to play are based on factors other than architectural rankings, but I enjoy reading about rating and ranking issues.  I have played close to 30 links courses in Ireland.  I have not been trained in using factors for ratings in standardized rating and ranking schema and never attempted to rate courses beyond where I elect to spend money over and over and which courses I decide to play, given access in the first place.

The fact that you rated Waterville higher than Ballybunion puts some burden on you to explain the basis for your ratings here.  Had you simply explained your rankings as your enjoyment, this thread would probably not have evolved the way it did. 

Charles Lund

[Garland Bayley]

...  Had you simply explained your rankings as your enjoyment, this thread would probably not have evolved the way it did. 

Charles Lund

Or, perhaps lacking the ad hominem attack on MP the thread would evolve differently.

[David_Tepper]

"Love it when someone disagrees with the GCA group think and then the herd challenges the person with the "how many______courses have you played question"."

Mark Pritchett -

Just to be clear, I have no problem with anyone who says they prefer course A over course B, regardless of what the "group think" is. As I said in my earlier post, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What I do find odd and curious is for someone to dismiss the observations of one of the most successful, respected golf course developers as being "off-base, stupid and jealous." Even given Jon Winick's disposition towards hyperbole, I thought it was worth knowing his golfing background/experience (especially regarding golf in GB&I) for making such a dubious, rude statement. 

DT

[JWinick]

What ad hominem attack are you referring to?

...  Had you simply explained your rankings as your enjoyment, this thread would probably not have evolved the way it did. 

Charles Lund

Or, perhaps lacking the ad hominem attack on MP the thread would evolve differently.

[JWinick]

David,


It is perfectly reasonable to question the objectivity of a rival course designer.    Doak's Confidential Guide was done before he was a known designer.   But, he is certainly not free of biases.   

"Love it when someone disagrees with the GCA group think and then the herd challenges the person with the "how many______courses have you played question"."

Mark Pritchett -

Just to be clear, I have no problem with anyone who says they prefer course A over course B, regardless of what the "group think" is. As I said in my earlier post, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What I do find odd and curious is for someone to dismiss the observations of one of the most successful, respected golf course developers as being "off-base, stupid and jealous." Even given Jon Winick's disposition towards hyperbole, I thought it was worth knowing his golfing background/experience (especially regarding golf in GB&I) for making such a dubious, rude statement. 

DT

[Mike Hendren]

I propose Prichett's Corollary to Godwin's Law:   In an internet discussion when the "how many courses have you played" question (also known as playing the experience card)  is asked the thread is over and the party asking the question is deemed to have lost the debate.

Bogey

[JWinick]

Thanx, Mark!

Love it when someone disagrees with the GCA group think and then the herd challenges the person with the "how many______courses have you played question". 

[JWinick]

Charles,


The great movie reviewer Pauline Kael used to never read anything about a movie before she saw it, feeling that her objectivity would be compromised.  She also generally only saw a movie once, which made her not fully appreciate Kubrick and others.   


I called it like I saw it - I think my opinions were rational and fair.    If I played Waterville and Ballybunion a few more times, my opinions might change.    But, I do not think I am alone in my views.   Golf Digest ranked Waterville higher.   Golf World (http://www.watervillegolflinks.ie/news/2014/10/11/breaking-news-from-waterville) had it ranked #3 in Europe.   

I haven't been involved in the discussion about rankings.  I also wrote words of encouragement for your trip and offered suggestions.

Confidential Guide Ratings:

RCD 9 10 9 10
RP  8 8 9 9
Ballybunion 10 9 10 9
Lahinch 8 9 9 8
Portmarnock 7 8 8 6
European Club - 7 7 6
Waterville 6 8 8 7
Island 6 7 6 6

I have no issue with your fondness for Waterville.  I played it twice on my first trip.  If I were back in the area, I would happily play it.  I return to many courses ranked 5 or 6 on the Doak scale and joined a club in Ireland with two courses ranked 5 and 6.  I play about 30 rounds a year on the two courses.  My decisions about where to play are based on factors other than architectural rankings, but I enjoy reading about rating and ranking issues.  I have played close to 30 links courses in Ireland.  I have not been trained in using factors for ratings in standardized rating and ranking schema and never attempted to rate courses beyond where I elect to spend money over and over and which courses I decide to play, given access in the first place.

The fact that you rated Waterville higher than Ballybunion puts some burden on you to explain the basis for your ratings here.  Had you simply explained your rankings as your enjoyment, this thread would probably not have evolved the way it did. 

Charles Lund

[David_Tepper]

"It is perfectly reasonable to question the objectivity of a rival course designer."

Jon Winnick -

Yes, it is reasonable to question the objectivity of a rival course designer. However, dismissing a rival course designer's comments as you have, using the words "off-base, stupid and jealous" crosses a line in way that I find offensive. Would you use those words if Mike Keiser had a different opinion about a golf course than you did?

Mark Parsinen is not a golf course architect. He is not a "rival" of any GCA. The only golf courses he has been involved with are his own. He has no reason to be jealous of any GCA.

You might want to listen to the current L. Donegan/J. Huggan podcast interviewing Mike Clayton. Clayton has just named Kingsbarns & Castle Stuart as the two best modern courses in Britain.

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/4/4/b/44b9cd4ce46116bb/ByTheMinGolf_Podcast_63.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d06ce8f35d6ca5f775f&c_id=12152313

Given that Mark Parsinen is the creator of those two courses, you might want to give his comments regarding golf course design more thought and consideration. You might learn something.

DT

[Mark Smolens]

Has anyone done the driver / van?  It must be a lot more expensive, as you are paying labor, additional insurance, etc.   I'm curious what others have done.

I have posted about Jimmy elsewhere on this site, but on my last trip to Ireland we had a driver/guide by the name of Jimmy O'Leary from JOL Tours. I could not give him a higher recommendation. Not only does he get you great rates on lodging (fractions of the rack rates at some of the best hotels on the island -- from the Slieve Donard to the Portmarnock Links Hotel), but he knows practically everyone who is anyone in the golf industry. During our round at the European Club, we had a delightful chat with Mr. Ruddy, who had stopped by to give Jimmy a hard time.

[Garland Bayley]

What ad hominem attack are you referring to?

...  Had you simply explained your rankings as your enjoyment, this thread would probably not have evolved the way it did. 

Charles Lund

Or, perhaps lacking the ad hominem attack on MP the thread would evolve differently.

Instead of providing counter evidence to MPs comments about green siting, you resorted to casting aspersions on his personality and motivations. DUH!

[JWinick]

Garland,


There is nothing else to say.  His opinions were so gratuitous and laughable that one can only question the motivation.   Sorry, I just call it like I see it.