Mid Pines #4: "the Tree". Stay or Go???

[Sean_A]

I agree, variation is wonderful.  In which case, perhaps all the trees leading to the tree should be whacked...I still think this is the only way we can truly understand its value.  There are plenty of tree walls at Mid Pines and generally in the world of golf.  What is lacking are showcased trees. 

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

I agree, variation is wonderful.  In which case, perhaps all the trees leading to the tree should be whacked...I still think this is the only way we can truly understand its value.  There are plenty of tree walls at Mid Pines and generally in the world of golf.  What is lacking are showcased trees. 

Ciao

Not sure about this particular tree but it seems to me that showcased individual trees die frequently.  It seems that they either get hit by lightning, knocked down by wind or are potentially weaker because they are not used to sitting by themselves out in the open.  A group of 3 trees seems like a better approach if a tree is truly important to a particular hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

This may have been touched on in the first six pages, but it matters little to an arrogant prick like me.


If the fairway cant is left to right, as the other RM indicates in thread post number two, all the more reason to get rid of the tree. The properly played shot that he espouses cannot be executed by all. Shots played well to the left side will end up to the right, unless they bound into the pine straw and sandy waste farther left.

[Ira Fishman]

This may have been touched on in the first six pages, but it matters little to an arrogant prick like me.


If the fairway cant is left to right, as the other RM indicates in thread post number two, all the more reason to get rid of the tree. The properly played shot that he espouses cannot be executed by all. Shots played well to the left side will end up to the right, unless they bound into the pine straw and sandy waste farther left.

Way to stir up a great debate. The fairway cant is not that significant unless you push your tee shot which I did about two months ago. I then hit a sweet spot punch shot that hit the tree. I deserved my fate. Jay knows the course way better than I will ever know it. However, I respectfully disagree with him about the tree (as I posted previously).


Ira

[Anthony Gray]

 Important to note is how the hole was originally designed to play. If it was a drive and pitch than the tree provides a barrier to prevent a drive of the green. If it is designed to be a drivable par 4 than the tree has to go because it is in the way. With the progression of golf technology it has changed to a hole that the gree can be challenged.


 Keep the tree and move the tee back or take the tree out let the golfer bomb away.

[Jay Mickle]

Important to note is how the hole was originally designed to play. If it was a drive and pitch than the tree provides a barrier to prevent a drive of the green. If it is designed to be a drivable par 4 than the tree has to go because it is in the way. With the progression of golf technology it has changed to a hole that the gree can be challenged.

Originally designed as drive and pitch with the ideal tee shot to the left side for the best access to the green. The right side was protected by the bunker and the most severe false front and side on the course. There was no tree originally.
Today for the longer golfers this is a drivable par 4 where a tee shot left of the green feeds onto it. A misplaced drive likely ends up in the bunker but the tree is no longer in play.

[Kyle Harris]

Years later and all I remember about the hole is lipping out for birdie and making par.

I never thought about the tree until this thread was started after the fact.

Get better.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ira, I remembered the thread and decided to resuscitate it for new members. Plus, It parallels a bit the tree issue on #17 at CCBuffalo. The tree was not part of DRJ's original plans, but when they grow that big and beautiful, a quandary arises.


The issue at hand is access to the right half of the green, correct? I don't remember the tilt of the green, from left side to right side. If the putting surface does encourage rightward roll, that solves the problem. Use the ground game, unless the fairway run-up does the opposite.


Play Better suggests that golfers improve over time, and we know that this is not the case. We have less time to practice and we are more likely to spend money on new clubs than lessons and practice balls. Play Smarter suggests that golfers are not only capable of laying up with a 200-yard shot to the left, to remove the tree from the line; they are also capable of identifying that play as viable and implementing it at the proper time. Most golfers are unlikely to play better or smarter.


The vast majority of golfers are right-handed, and the mediocre to bad golfers push the ball or slice the ball to the right, no matter which club you put in their hand off the tee. The hybrid and the driver will both end up in the right-side trouble.


The optimal landing zone, in that left-side bump-out, some 100 yards from the green, is quite small. Does it gather or repel bounding shots?


The bunker was placed there to gather the under-club and the mis-hit. Those are pretty likely with our identified golfer. Right of the tree is out of bounds, so that option disappears. The fairway width is narrowest starting 30 yards shy of the tree, moving equal to the tree. 


It's a tree that punishes the mediocre to bad golfer. It does not impact as much the good golfer who decides to lay back and left. It impacts the great golfer little, the one who controls a shot up the left side, no matter the length of the tee ball.

[Kyle Harris]

Asking golfers to play better is a feature of the sport, not a bug. Some would say it's the ante to sit at the table.

[Peter Sayegh]

Just played MP on Monday-with players MUCH better than me.One played the perfect tee shot, short of the left bunker with a great approach look. Went a little left and struggled. The other played his second with the tree in his direct line but actually faded one above the pin and stuck. One of the best shots I've seen on the hole.
For me, a high handicapper, the tree is a blessing if you end off right off the tee. Takes stupid expectations out of the equation. Aim left and short from there and putt uphill. Give me a 5 and I'll move on.
Let the tree have it's day/decades in the sun.

[Sean_A]

I agree, variation is wonderful.  In which case, perhaps all the trees leading to the tree should be whacked...I still think this is the only way we can truly understand its value.  There are plenty of tree walls at Mid Pines and generally in the world of golf.  What is lacking are showcased trees. 

Ciao

Not sure about this particular tree but it seems to me that showcased individual trees die frequently.  It seems that they either get hit by lightning, knocked down by wind or are potentially weaker because they are not used to sitting by themselves out in the open.  A group of 3 trees seems like a better approach if a tree is truly important to a particular hole.

If the tree dies naturally, it's fine. Better to have no tree than a gaggle of trees.

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

As I was checking in for our tee time on Monday at Mid Pines, I heard out of the corner of my ear one of the greens crew report to someone (Superintendent perhaps) that they had finished felling a tree on Number 4. I pivoted immediately to check that it was not “the tree”, and was quickly reassured that it assuredly was not.


Ira

[A.G._Crockett]

I have not read all 6 pages of this thread, so this may have already been posted earlier.  The presumption that the tree wasn’t there and large, if not full grown, when Ross designed the hole may not be correct.


Longleaf pines live a LONG time, sometimes as much as 500 years, and I don’t think you’ll find them on any list of fast growing trees, so it’s entirely possible that the tree was already not only there, but sizable when Ross worked. It seems unlikely to me that a Longleaf grew there untouched for 100 years to full size AFTER Ross designed Mid Pines. 

[Peter Flory]

I'm playing it tomorrow in the annual hickory tournament.  I love the course, but I fear the 2-4 stretch.  You just have to be so precise to get through that stretch without an issue. 


As to the tree on 4, it doesn't bother me because I don't really aim for the green on the approach.  I just try to leave it left and short of the bunker, then flip a coin on trying to make par with a lag from off the green. 

[Mike Hendren]

Debatable architectural elements are highly desirable when the debate leaves no obvious conclusion. Then again I hit a 9-iron to 10 feet of a back hole location earlier this year and never noticed that tree.

[Jay Mickle]

I have not read all 6 pages of this thread, so this may have already been posted earlier.  The presumption that the tree wasn’t there and large, if not full grown, when Ross designed the hole may not be correct.


Longleaf pines live a LONG time, sometimes as much as 500 years, and I don’t think you’ll find them on any list of fast growing trees, so it’s entirely possible that the tree was already not only there, but sizable when Ross worked. It seems unlikely to me that a Longleaf grew there untouched for 100 years to full size AFTER Ross designed Mid Pines.

See Reply #102


Having played the course over 1500 times and seen thousands of shots I continue to believe that the hole would be better without the tree. The severity of the green and the fronting bunker would provide a a real risk/reward decision for those on the right of the fairway while those skilled enough to have driven up the left would have the ideal approach though trouble lurks everywhere on this hole.
Caveat: Given the abandoned buildings to the right of the green I would not currently remove the tree as there would likely be too many OB misses.

[mike_malone]

Saw it yesterday. It was distinctive and necessary.

[archie_struthers]

 


It's fun to have a conundrum like this.  I'm with Ran on this one , leave it alone and play on.


My buddies who kill it won't  worry about it on their second shot , but on the first. So it works in that respect. I'm cool with playing it front left if you don't stripe it, so there you go.

[Peter Sayegh]

As beautiful-and hardy-as ever. Who would advocate its removal?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/194357794@N03/53498770246/in/dateposted-public/

[Ira Fishman]

Peter,


Thanks for reviving the thread with a wonderful photo.


My wife and I have the great fun of meeting Jay on the Mickle Porch at MP the past couple of years. We never discuss Number 4 because he simply is not correct.


A great hole, a wonderful green, and an iconic tree.


Ira

[Matt MacIver]

Looking at the most recent picture reminded me of a hole that has three trees where the one at MP is…three is way too many and the associated roots and lack of grass make it worse.  But i do like the one tree…although now that I think about it the three trees block out a terrible second shot to the par 4 green and not the drive…

[Jay Mickle]

I can't believe it's been over 7 1/2 years since I posted this but having played the course at least another thousand times with hundreds and hundreds of different players I still believe that without the tree the additional option of an approach from the right side of the fairway would be very much what Donald Ross and conceived of initially. I get the feeling that the stronger players who can spot place their drives feel that their skill is devalued by a less accurate driver with a great short game who with the opportunity could also be putting for a birdie. The hole is a great test with or without the tree.