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Ian Andrew

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How valuable are your trees?
« on: June 27, 2016, 10:12:02 PM »

What I would love many of you on this site to do is go out to your home club next week and list the 25 most important trees on your golf course when it comes to strategy and setting. Please write it down somewhere, or make you notes on a google aerial.

Please let me know when a few of you have and I'll make my point early next week.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 09:37:37 AM »
Ian,

Just pointing out that the arborist society (not sure of name) has a formula worksheet for the value of trees, based on size, species, etc. 

Basic measurement is "per caliper inch" and depending on species and other factors, the estimates come in quite high, in the thousands of dollars range........I recall a factor for location, too.

I have it in my specs to remind contractors that they shouldn't take the trees on site lightly. 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 10:11:57 AM »
Jeff,

Wrong direction - it's strictly an architectural point.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Thomas Dai

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 11:02:35 AM »
Ian,


Interesting exercise, nicely thought provoking.


My usual course is covered in the damn things (thoughtless planting and longterm lack of maintenance) but on conducting your exercise I can't get near 25 trees that are actually important for strategy! Maybe more are appropriate for setting purposes but that's only because the course setting is rural countryside rather than in an urban or semi-urban environment.



Atb

Ronald Montesano

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 11:03:53 AM »
cue banjos
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Zack Molnar

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 01:07:14 PM »
Can they be important in a negative value-add sense?

Ian Andrew

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 03:50:11 PM »
Zack,

Not sure what your asking.
But - if it helps - I'm not questioning the value of the 25 people will select.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Peter Pallotta

Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 04:28:09 PM »
Ian - interesting question, even though I imagine the majority of us will have a hard time identifying even 10 trees of significance, let alone 25. Also, I need to cheat a bit, i.e. I have to speak in terms of "stands of trees" instead of individual trees, since in no case/hole at my home course is an individual tree significant either strategically or aesthetically. So, with bolding for the holes where I believe trees have some meaningful impact/value:

Hole No. 1 - the trees running down the entire right side are functional, i.e. they prevent tee shots from flying onto the driving range and vice-versa, but don't adversely affect the hole strategically speaking. 
No. 2 - the trees running down the right side of landing zone are unnecessarily penal, i.e. they mirror and stand along- side a series of artificial mounds, which together serve to make any decent recovery from a fade-slice almost impossible.   
No. 3 - the trees running down the left side of this long par 4 (the #1 stroke hole) are functional, preventing hooked tee shots from getting onto the 2nd fairway; but they also hurt the hole playing-wise, since a long drive that is only slightly pulled leaves one more often than not having to simply chip out sideways -- whereas without the trees most golfers would still be left with a long-iron approach into a green that 'opens' from the other side.   
No. 4 - a Par 3 over water with no trees in play. 
No. 5 - the trees running down the right side of this dog-leg right are functional, protecting the tee boxes for the 4th hole, but also add to the strategy since it is the trees that create the dogleg and beckon you to try to hit a very controlled fade so to have as short an iron as possible into a tricky, upside-down-bowl of a green.
No.6 - a Par 3 over water, with no trees in play.   
No. 7 - another longish Par 4, where the trees running on the right side of the landing zone serve a strategic function, i.e. if you play too safely to the widest part of the fairway (and away from the out of bounds and bunkers on the left) you run out of fairway and into the trees -- hampering what would otherwise be a short and easy approach shot.   
No. 8 - the only Par 5 on the front side, the trees here serve only the setting, i.e. there are many trees along both sides of the hole, but the fairway is uniformly wide for the entire length of the hole and the trees are all set well back from the lines of play.
No. 9 - the trees on the left side of the landing zone (which is both the preferred side in terms of approaching the green, and the safe side, since the bunkers and mounds and out of bounds/the range are all on the right) serve as on the 7th hole to complicate matters for someone who plays too safe and/or hits it too far.
No. 10 - a Par 5, and like the 8th uniformly wide with the trees all set back from the lines of play, so they are pretty but serve no real strategic function.
No. 11 - a long Par 3, the trees are not in play.
No. 12 - a dogleg right, and I like the trees here. They run along the right side, but (unlike at the 2nd) there is no artificial mounding there and the trees are fairly sparse -- so that, if you try to cut the dog-leg to leave yourself a short approach but fade it too much, you have to deal with the trees, but you still have a chance of hitting the green with a very good shot.
No. 13 - a Par 3 over water, where no trees are in play.
No. 14 - a short Par 4, with trees lining the fairways functionally (i.e. separating the golf holes) and only affecting play on very bad mishits.
No 15 - a long Par 3, with no trees in play. 
No. 16 -- a dog-leg right Par 5, with the trees that function on the right-side of the 12th hole serving the same function here, and fairly well, i.e. cutting too much of the dog-leg leaves a difficult but far from impossible second shot.
No. 17 - a short, sharply dog-legging Par 4, with trees at the far end of the landing zone (if you play a straight and safe shot) affecting your approach if you've played too safe or hit it too far; in other words, the trees here function sort of like they do on the 7th hole.
No. 18 - a long dog-leg right Par 4 to an elevated green, with trees on the right side (as on the 1st hole) serving to keep errant shots out of the driving range and vice-versa, but also (as with the 2nd hole) negatively impacting the hole because there is also artificial mounding there, so a fade that fades too much leaves little chance for anything more than chipping out sideways. 
       
Well, there you have it, Ian. I hope I've given you a decent picture. On my home course (a farmer's field in 1970, with all the trees planted then both to beautify the site and, I assume, to add strategy), there are 6 holes where I believe the stands of trees serve some significant and useful and interesting function.   

PS - a couple of asides: 1) in principle I'm neither for nor against trees; some courses may play and look better with significant tree clearing; for others I think it would entail an unnecessary expense (and a short-sighted keeping up with the Jones), 2) my home course, owned by the same family for almost 50 years, is a modestly semi-private/public, and the trees, though there are many, and in some injudicious places, don't seem to affect the agronomics. Indeed, for me the turf and especially the greens are always in wonderful condition -- and a few years ago, after that bad winter, I'm told that the fancy private club up the street 'lost' more than half its greens, while our course got through with barely a scratch.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 11:08:31 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Matt_Cohn

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 06:19:40 PM »
I'll try it with Harding Park. Almost all of the trees I identify are 25-100 yards from the green so that accuracy from the tee is still required. After all, only 7 holes have fairway bunkers in play from the tee and there's not long grass in play. Only the trees (and high rough during tournaments) create a great need for accuracy from the tee.


1. One or two trees on the right would be useful in terms of "penalizing" a bad tee shot. The angle isn't good from right, but the approach shot is short enough that angle alone might not be a big deal without trees or thick rough.


2. The hole wouldn't be hugely different without trees; again they basically penalize any shot more than 5-8 yards off the fairway.


3. Par-3, trees not a factor.


4. Two or three trees left of the fairway off the tee help to shield the 5th green and prevent players from cutting the corner too closely. A tree on the right side of the layup area helps to keep players honest on the first two shots.


5. A bunch of trees on the inside corner of the dogleg set up a right-to-left teeshot and keep it from being too wide open to be interesting. A couple would need to be kept.


6. Maybe keep a couple of trees on the left between the fairway and green so that players can't go overly crazy cutting the corner and still have a clear approach.


7. Keep one on the right to make hitting the fairway important.


8. Par-3, trees not a factor.


9. Trees not a factor.


10. Without the trees on the left there would be less pressure on the tee shot, but there isn't one or two trees that make a particular difference.


11. Par-3, trees not a factor (although the one short-right is pretty).


12. Aesthetically the trees matter since there's a fence, a busy street, and SFSU on the left. But one or two trees short left of the green would keep the general shot values intact.


13. A tree or two on the left would maintain the necessity of not driving through the fairway on the left; the better angle is still from the right, but without significant rough, the hole would be overly wide without them.


14. The trees are pretty, but not at all in play.


15. Likewise.


16. A couple of trees on the right help to create interest. Without them the hole would be too easy absent thick rough.


17. Par-3, trees not a factor.


18. I'd be happy for all of the trees along the lake to be removed.

Dave McCollum

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 07:20:43 PM »
OK, I did a complete inventory on every hole.  It's rather long and detailed.  Trees have a fairly significant influence on the strategy of about 5 holes on an otherwise wide open course.  More so on other holes for bad shots.  We're a high desert landscape, so hardly tree lined.  Add water, lots of volunteer species, years of neglect, some, but not much, planting (mostly for screening and protection), and it is what it is.  We do cut trees with no purpose or are effecting the agronomy.  I won't post until Ian requests or needs to illustrate his theory.   

Dave McCollum

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 07:37:46 PM »
Although some have posted lengthy descriptions, Ian's instructions were to write them down somewhere or on a Google aerial, which I took to mean not here, not yet.  My own is similar to those above.  I'm curious about where this is going.

Carl Rogers

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 08:36:21 PM »
It is axiomatic that the fewer number of anything you have, the more important they become.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mike Sweeney

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 08:40:59 PM »

What I would love many of you on this site to do is go out to your home club next week and list the 25 most important trees on your golf course when it comes to strategy and setting. Please write it down somewhere, or make you notes on a google aerial.



Fabulous exercise.


I will not be able to get to New Haven for 2-3 weeks, so here are my thoughts on trees in New England. Here is Yale's latest Google:





Here is how farmers and nuns clear their property in the New Haven area:




He is Shennecossett GC in New London:



I know what the budget is at Yale, and yes it is a BIG property with many more streams than Shenny. I don't know the budget at Shenny, but the Super (who used to post here) does a great job. Is it the open space or his abilities? I am guessing a combination of the two.

I love Yale GC, and Scott does an amazing job, but I would love to see a trial/test of pulling EVERY tree between the 10th/11th holes and the 18th holes and lets see what happens.

When Macdonald/Raynor built the course in the 1923 era, they were pulling trees and rocks with donkeys and horses. Today, my guess/suggestion is that they would handle the trees differently in the modern era.

Should it go Oakmont?

Yes, I think it should. The terrain is so wild, and the routing so perfect, that recovery shots from many tree areas would be fabulous. Go create a perimeter of trees around the course. There really are no trees that are "strategic" trees at Yale today. I don't know the exact count, but Scott has pulled hundreds/thousands of trees over the last 8+ years.

Obviously, all of the above is my opinion as a "aficionado" of golf and golf architecture.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Ian Andrew

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 09:14:19 PM »
I will follow this up on Monday or Tuesday ...
I wanted those interested to have a week to go and see/play a course that matters to them.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2016, 09:27:58 AM »
Good lord, how violently inappropriate can Mike Sweeney's pictures be?!?! I've never seen so large a negation. That said, I'd love to see them.


If form holds, I'll return to Yale soon and will be able to assess the plan to eliminate trees 'twixt those fairways.


When RTJSR pushed the 17th fairway at CCBuffalo to the right, to create a fake par five, a tree in the middle of the old fairway was planted and is now the dominant tree on the course. The restoration is partly incomplete due to this tree: it is magnificent and stately and the members love it. It also eliminated the chance of going completely back to Donald Ross' vision.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Niall C

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2016, 10:45:16 AM »
Yes indeed, an interesting exercise. I’m a member at a club with a links course and in recent years we’ve taken out a number of pine trees that acted as backstops to greens etc, all for sound agronomy reasons as the trees didn’t interfere with play in the conventional sense. However some of the members forced through an EGM to discuss the matter before it was finally agreed to go ahead with the work which shows the emotions that trees engender.

The club also has a parkland course which is over a hundred years old. Being of that vintage many of the original trees have gone to the great timber yard in the sky and have been replaced with similar species. Like many courses of this age it is also on a relatively small parcel of land and therefore there has been a fair amount of planting to screen adjacent holes from each other. For certain greens and tees, I can’t really argue with that but there has been too much general screening down the side of holes. Some judicious use of the chainsaw wouldn’t go amiss.

However if I was looking at individual trees on individual holes I think it would be even more interesting to decide on each hole, one tree that I’d definitely keep and another that would definitely go, both on the basis of impact on the design of the hole. In my minds eye, as I wonder through the course, it’s easier to identify trees to take out than ones to keep which kind of begs the question of if you can’t find a reason to keep them then why should you ?
 
Niall

JMEvensky

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2016, 11:06:03 AM »

In my minds eye, as I wonder through the course, it’s easier to identify trees to take out than ones to keep which kind of begs the question of if you can’t find a reason to keep them then why should you ?
 



Same here. Seems the tree question somehow got flipped upside down. IMO,the default position should be that trees' existences should be justified--not the other way round. There are good reasons to have trees on a golf course,but if a tree or group of trees doesn't meet the criteria,it's likely doing more harm than good.


But there will always be a very loud percentage of the membership who prefer the trees to the golf course.

Peter Pallotta

Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2016, 11:18:32 AM »
Just an aside:

it strikes me that only the great courses have individual trees with any strategic impact, for either good or ill, or that are in any way historic and/or iconic.  The countless fair to middling courses around the world have no iconic trees (or bunkers or greens), only nameless and faceless stands of trees, and garden-variety bunkers and greens.   It is the rarest of luxuries to have on a course you play regularly something akin to Augusta's Eisenhower Tree or to that cypress at Pebble Beach or the Church Pews at Oakmont or the DA at PV or the Road at St Andrews. 

Ronald Montesano

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2016, 12:54:18 PM »
Go here https://www.google.com/maps/place/Delaware+Park+Golf+Course/@42.932619,-78.854946,662m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d312b417b747d1:0x4efcc82f7d4d1a69!8m2!3d42.932619!4d-78.8527573


and take a look at some of the trees on this golf course! This is the course that Nicklaus wants to come in and massage. I hate to think of what might happen to some of these trees. Not a great course, but a great place to play.


RM
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jason Topp

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2016, 03:46:03 PM »
We have two trees to the right of the 15th green that somewhat discourage a shortcut on a long par 4.  We have a tree or two to the right of our 17th fairway that forces longer hitters to aim a bit closer to a bunker on the left side of the fairway.  No other trees really come into play if you are within 30 yards of the center of the fairway. 

My former club was a classic tree lined course. 

- There are some pines at the corner of the 2nd that caused the demise of a gigantic bunker that existed up until the 50's.  The trees provide some interesting options of either using the land to roll the ball around the corner, play wide of everything or for long hitters hit it over the corner.

- There is a tree on the right side of the 5th that I like.  The hole is a short par 5.  In order to reach the green in two one must be on the right side of the fairway near a fairway bunker.  A tree about 100 yards off the tee must be negotiated by either hitting it high or hitting a fade to get to that spot.  I look forward to that challenge every time I play the hole. 

While the remainder of the course has plenty of trees, I do not think any of them really impact strategy other than punishing wayward shots.     

Dan Herrmann

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2016, 04:38:11 PM »
Ian - there are no trees of value at French Creek.

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2016, 04:42:03 PM »
Hmmmm....need to calculate...


Hey, what's the latest "market rate" for chopped, stacked cords of firewood?
Once I know that, I can calculate the FMV (fair market value) of our trees.... ;D

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 04:56:38 PM »
I’ve spent a lot of years working on older courses and much of my time is spent on large scale tree removal programs. This is primarily driven by improving growing environments for greens, but it extends to healthy trees, playability and in many instances views.

This exercise, as one very astute person wrote, was to flip the conversation. Rather than have me justify why trees should go, I wanted the member to justify why trees should stay. The choice of 25 was to make a very clear point. When forced to select that few, you had to really consider what matter most to you. Was it species (this tends to be my focus because I like to think a generation out from me), placement (most common) or presence (very impressive trees, not at all in play).


About five years ago I became increasingly frustrated with a very good long term client. While they took my advice easily on everything else, they just couldn’t get going on removing the softwoods and conifers added during years of over-zealous planting. I had explained why removals take place and assured them through imagery that their course will still be a Parkland setting. But I was stymied by a few key people on the Greens Committee.

The “pick 25 Trees” question was how I finally got things started at that club. I suggested that each man go out separately and list their 25 key trees. Anything on their list was deemed essential and would not be removed even if it had been put on a previous list. I would plot all the trees on a plan and we would start the conversation about tree removal again next week.


I plotted all their trees on a plan. I showed them just that plan (the essentials) and they were all happy. I then pulled up my removal plan with all their trees shown. After only a short discussion they agreed to remove the rest of the trees because they realized they weren’t that important after all. How many were saved? Only 8 trees, 7 were at corners of doglegs and that impacted only 4 actual holes.

An important note: they had already agreed that sunlight and airflow around greens were not a Greens Committee mandate and those were being actively removed through shade studies.


That’s where we are now … actively removing trees … and yes a few of them will come back up for discussion in the next cycle. The committee has already questioned why certain trees stayed. The question of trees had been flipped.


Of note: I actually don’t spend much time convincing clubs anymore. I find almost all are on board right from the outset. I have a few that are more cautious than the rest, but generally this is seen as progressive by most clubs. There are so many excellent examples out there to make a clear cut case.
 
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 05:11:00 PM »
Nice one Ian, turning the thought process around. I shall pass this strategy on to those involved where I play most. 😊
Atb

Dave McCollum

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Re: How valuable are your trees?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 03:26:27 AM »
Ian, very nice post confirmed in my personal inventory.  I counted 18 trees or groups of trees with significant influence on strategy or play of the hole.  After reading your “flip the conversation” post, I went back and counted again the trees that really mattered and came up with the same five holes I mentioned previously, all at the inside turn of doglegs.  Our problem is that many of these trees on those five holes are mostly dead or very near the end of their shelf life and will come down in future wind events.  On two of the five holes the trees could be replaced by bunkers to restore the strategy.  That leaves three holes that would be less interesting without the trees.  One could be fixed by rerouting and building a new treeless hole to replace a short par three with another with more interest.  The remaining two holes would be a little less interesting if left alone, but could be improved if the areas influenced by trees were transitioned into native or less maintained surfaces.

Interestingly, when discussing tree removal with members/regulars or replacing trees that have blown down or died, there is initially a fairly strong reaction for replacement to restore strategy.  However, when we make an objective assessment of whether a tree “has a purpose,” don’t replace a casualty, or cut a tree down when it does not, very few golfers complain.  In our climate, shade on a hot summer day is a purpose so long as it doesn’t influence playability or turf health in a significant way, especially on holes where there might be delays on a busy day.  Our golfers are not sophisticated or aware of a larger golfing world.  Yet, when get rid of trash trees with no purpose or beauty, they accept it fairly quickly as an improvement.  Unlike many other notions of what golf should be, such as lush green fairways and greens, this is a welcomed shift in common perspective. 

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