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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2016, 08:59:12 PM »
The average golfer and average golf course need to accept the USGA for what it is and just do their thing.  They have no jurisdiction over any of our courses other than if you wish to play their events on your course.  And that's fine.  Otherwise they are no different than AFL-CIO to car manufacturers or ASGCA to golf design.  They have zero affect on the average golf course. 
So much went wrong today....even during  the awards ceremony the president sounded drunk or close to it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2016, 09:04:36 PM »
Mike:

One of the greatest interviews after an event was done by Darren Clarke the day after he won The Open....he hadn't been to bed and was completely"hydrated" and admitted it to the media.....my hero!!!!

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2016, 09:04:56 PM »
Internet tough guy?  Not name calling?

You made it personal. Not me.

This was your doing. Not mine. 

I said nothing about you, which is basically the norm...

That purple skin is pretty thin.

You're still at this?  I'll bet you think you really ARE getting under my skin.

Tilt at a different windmill.   You're doing yourself no favors extending a squabble you started and made personal when, as usual, I had nothing to say to you - because I care not a whit about you and, frankly, don't even remember you if, as I suspect, we've met.

Why do you keep doing this to yourself?  You must be a glutton for punishment.

Dave: 

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain to you how wrong you are.

With love,

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2016, 09:06:53 PM »
 
So much went wrong today....even during  the awards ceremony the president sounded drunk or close to it...


+1
no longer just doddering old men
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2016, 09:10:45 PM »
The USGA makes greens too fast and blames players when the ball moves on its own.


The player says he had nothing to do with it, the walking official – the head of USGA's rules department – agrees, and they call the player a liar.


They use zoomed-in video to decide he's a liar after making a rule that using zoomed-in video to make a ruling is improper. (Post-Woods at Conway Farms, 2013.)


They tell him there might be a penalty seven holes later knowing there will be a penalty at the end of the round.


This is the same outfit that doesn't trust us to post scores when playing alone.


And the same outfit that, every couple of months, mails a plea begging to rejoin the party as a USGA member. And e-mails the same entreaty even more often.


What a bunch of bunglers.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Andrew Simpson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2016, 09:11:08 PM »
I'm with the USGA. It's not about the honesty but the evidence and the process of scoring being completed after play.
The pros take long enough to play a round of golf without stopping in the middle of a round to look at every shot on video. The problem is the media thinking they have the right to know before the official process has been completed.
We all knew it was going to be assessed at the end of the round,it was over a ONE shot penalty, if you can't cope with that switch over.
It's all hype that it was any more than that.
Well done DJ

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2016, 09:16:25 PM »
Here's the release on using video evidence (or not) from late 2013/early 2014 (no date on the USGA website):


USGA and R&A Joint Statement on The Use of Video And Other Visual Evidence in Administering the Rules of GolfIn recent years, the rapid development of video technology, such as HDTV, digital recording and on-line visual media, has brought a new level of scrutiny to Rules issues arising in elite golf tournaments. This has led to an increasing number of inquiries to officials from television viewers and others about whether a breach of the Rules has occurred, sometimes resulting in breaches of the Rules being identified (and penalties being applied) after the incident itself occurred. Occasionally, the identification of the breach has been after the player has returned his or her score card, which has therefore resulted in disqualification under Rule 6-6d. These developments have generated considerable discussion concerning whether, how and when such video evidence should be used.The Rules of Golf Committees of the USGA and The R&A have been reviewing the operation of the Rules in the light of these continuing technological developments in order to determine whether any changes to the Rules are appropriate. In April 2011, the USGA and The R&A adopted Decision 33-7/4.5, which authorizes Committees to waive the disqualification penalty for a breach of Rule 6- 6d in narrow circumstances in which the player could not reasonably have been aware of a breach of the Rules that later was identified only through video evidence.Since adopting Decision 33-7/4.5, the USGA and The R&A have continued to review the impact of video technology on the game. With input and assistance from representatives of the professional tours who serve as consulting members of the Rules of Golf Committees, the USGA and The R&A are now introducing a further modification of the Rules, with effect from January 1, 2014, to address the use of video technology in determining whether a ball at rest has “moved” within the meaning of the Rules. New Decision 18/4 will provide that, where enhanced technological evidence shows that a ball has left its position and come to rest in another location, the ball will not be deemed to have moved if that movement was not reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time. The Decision ensures that a player is not penalized under Rule 18-2 in circumstances where the fact that the ball had changed location could not reasonably have been seen without the use of enhanced technology.Beyond these Decisions, as part of the 2016 Rules review, the Rules of Golf Committees will be discussing other issues concerning the possible effect of video technology on the application of the Rules to the playing of the game, such as the necessary degree of precision in marking, lifting and replacing a ball, the estimation of a reference point for taking relief, and the overall question of the appropriate penalty for returning an incorrect score card where the player was unaware that a penalty had been incurred. As is true of the rules in many other televised sports, adapting to developments in technology and video evidence is an important ongoing topic in making and applying the Rules of Golf.In pursuing this continuing review, the USGA and The R&A will be guided by their longstanding position that a Committee should consider all evidence, regardless of the source, that may be relevant in determining the facts to which the Rules must be applied. As reflected in the interpretations contained in the Decisions, for questions of fact, the resolution of doubt must be made in the light of all relevant circumstances and be based on the weight of the evidence. To reach a correct ruling, all evidence from witnesses concerning a possible breach of the Rules should be considered, whether those witnesses are participants in the competition, non-participants such as spectators, or persons who have reviewed television footage and the like. Additionally, the Decisions provide that a Committee may make or revise a ruling at a later time if further information becomes available before the competition has closed.In many other sports, there are good and understandable reasons for imposing a strict time limit on the review and correction of rules decisions. In golf, however, even at the elite level, players often apply the Rules to themselves without the assistance of a referee and, in stroke play, are responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole. Moreover, competitions are often played over more than one day and, in stroke play, the outcome typically is based on total score, making it possible to correct errors significantly after the fact and, indeed, at any time before the competition is closed by virtue of the result being officially announced. For these reasons, disregarding relevant evidence of a breach of the Rules, obtained before the competition has ended, could lead to uncertainty and to unhealthy debate and disagreement about the fairness of a result that was influenced by an incorrect set of facts and failure to apply the Rules properly. If a player has breached a Rule, but this is not discovered until a later time, whether through video evidence or otherwise, such evidence must be considered so that the correct ruling can be applied and the player’s score can be recorded accurately. In their ongoing review of the use of video and other enhanced technology, the USGA and The R&A will continue to be guided by the view that, regardless of the timing or the type of evidence used, the integrity of the game is best served by getting the ruling right.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2016, 09:20:58 PM »
I'm with the USGA. It's not about the honesty but the evidence and the process of scoring being completed after play.
The pros take long enough to play a round of golf without stopping in the middle of a round to look at every shot on video. The problem is the media thinking they have the right to know before the official process has been completed.
We all knew it was going to be assessed at the end of the round,it was over a ONE shot penalty, if you can't cope with that switch over.
It's all hype that it was any more than that.
Well done DJ


What reason did they need to stop play?
they looked at the video, spoke to DJ, (twice-once with on course guy and once on 12 tee)
They had made up their mind.
How would HIM looking at a video that all could see showed NOTHING, change what THEY had already decided-that nothing else had caused the ball to move.
(admittedly based on a prior rules decision)
They completely disregarded what DJ said and made their ruling.
they should have informed him (and the field) at that moment.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2016, 09:25:12 PM »
Assuming that courses are members of the USGA and individuals are members of the courses/clubs thus able to obtain a USGA handicap, question....
If all golf courses/clubs left the USGA in the morning where would the USGA be?  and  If the USGA ceased to exist tomorrow our golf courses would be fine.  To me that tells me all I need to know....they've taken so any things so much further than they ever need to go and it's very obvious when watching the executive committee and other public examples of USGA employees etc that they have an air that is not going away on its own.  It's all ceremony for these guys....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2016, 09:30:20 PM »
Sorry I offended your 2nd grade sensibilities.  Egg shell theory, I guess.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2016, 09:57:06 PM »
USGA should be COMPLETELY EMBARRASSED by how the penalty situation was handled.  Really really Bad for golf!!!   

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2016, 10:02:27 PM »
Sorry I offended your 2nd grade sensibilities.  Egg shell theory, I guess.

More ad hominems?  This from the guy who interjected himself with ad hominems and claimed not to use them... LOL. 

You just can't stop making a fool of yourself, can you?   

You literally can't stop.  So sad.  Sad that you can't see how 2nd grader-ish it makes you to be calling me a 2nd grader.  You really don't get the irony there, do you?   

 You really need to stop.  But you won't.  And all because you simply had to interject yourself into something nobody asked you to - and try to one up me with name calling for some reason, and then denying it.  And you of all people are trying to lecture me?  Comical.

Your volume speaks words.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2016, 10:17:34 PM »
If you were half as smart as you think you are , you'd know why and where this started.  You were wrong then, you're wrong now.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2016, 10:35:05 PM »
Wait...I see what's going on here. Somehow Dave and Sven are in cahoots with the USGA, and they are attempting a smokescreen to take the spotlight off their unfortunate mess.

Nice ruse, guys. I almost fell for your foolish spat as being real....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2016, 10:42:29 PM »
Wrong then, wrong now.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2016, 11:05:58 PM »
I'm with the USGA. It's not about the honesty but the evidence and the process of scoring being completed after play.
The pros take long enough to play a round of golf without stopping in the middle of a round to look at every shot on video. The problem is the media thinking they have the right to know before the official process has been completed.
We all knew it was going to be assessed at the end of the round,it was over a ONE shot penalty, if you can't cope with that switch over.
[/size]It's all hype that it was any more than that.[/color]
[/size]Well done DJ[/color]


If you all knew that a penalty was going to be assessed, why didn't you say so, instead of pretending that it would be "reviewed" after the round.


And who the heck was the walking official with Johnson's group. He asked an ambiguous question (Did you ground the club?) and got a "No" answer. Which was true if the question meant "did you ground the club behind the ball?" I don't blame Johnson for that. The fault lies with the imprecise and hurried official.
David Lott

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2016, 11:36:07 PM »
They had to talk with DJ to see if he had any reasons to suggest as to why the ball moved other than something he had done.  DJ said his position was that he had not addressed the ball by grounding his putter behind the ball, but he didn't know that grounding your putter is no longer the criteria--it's whether a player is the cause of the ball moving, based on the balancing of all the evidence.  Ask the simple question--would his ball have probably moved if he hadn't been next to it?
I think it is probably clear that under the current rule a penalty was called for.  His soling of his putter next to the ball twice probably (not absolutely) was the cause of the ball moving.
However, I would not have ruled the way the USGA did.  The referee on site said no penalty--probably too quickly and without asking any good questions.  But he ruled nonetheless.  In any sport--look at the NBA playoffs--refs make mistakes.  But there has to be finality of rulings, and this overturning was too late.  So, I would have said that unless the taped evidence showed clearly and absolutely beyond a reasonable doubt that he had moved the ball, the ruling by the referee with the group stands.
In law school terms--the burden of proof goes from a preponderance of the evidence to beyond any reasonable doubt once a ruling is made and everyone plays in concurrence with that ruling.
What say you real lawyers out there?  Or do the rules of golf already have too many lawyers involved?  Is that the problem?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2016, 11:41:19 PM »
They had to talk with DJ to see if he had any reasons to suggest as to why the ball moved other than something he had done.  DJ said his position was that he had not addressed the ball by grounding his putter behind the ball, but he didn't know that grounding your putter is no longer the criteria--it's whether a player is the cause of the ball moving, based on the balancing of all the evidence.  Ask the simple question--would his ball have probably moved if he hadn't been next to it?
I think it is probably clear that under the current rule a penalty was called for.  His soling of his putter next to the ball twice probably (not absolutely) was the cause of the ball moving.
However, I would not have ruled the way the USGA did.  The referee on site said no penalty--probably too quickly and without asking any good questions.  But he ruled nonetheless.  In any sport--look at the NBA playoffs--refs make mistakes.  But there has to be finality of rulings, and this overturning was too late.  So, I would have said that unless the taped evidence showed clearly and absolutely beyond a reasonable doubt that he had moved the ball, the ruling by the referee with the group stands.
In law school terms--the burden of proof goes from a preponderance of the evidence to beyond any reasonable doubt once a ruling is made and everyone plays in concurrence with that ruling.
What say you real lawyers out there?  Or do the rules of golf already have too many lawyers involved?  Is that the problem?


well put, but whatever questions needed to be asked should've been asked on #12 at the latest and once they decided to overrule, they should have overruled-rather than giving Dustin the illusion they hadn't made up their mind.
Imagine penalizing him at the end to cost him the title and Dustin and his scorekeeper not agreeing?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2016, 11:49:16 PM »
I agree, Jeff.  It's like taking away a 1st quarter touchdown in the 4th quarter.  At some point speed of decision and finality outweigh exactitude.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 11:52:38 PM by Jim Hoak »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2016, 11:58:53 PM »
I agree, Jeff.  It's like taking away a 1st quarter touchdown in the 4th quarter.  At some point speed of decision and finality outweigh exactitude.


Even better and seemingly more important than a decision


Rule 34-2
If a referee has been appointed by The Committee, his decision is FINAL


or not....
WTF was the USGA thinking?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2016, 12:20:03 AM »
This is a symptom of the real problem: the players in general don't respect the USGA to administer a fair tournament. You heard complaints about some groups having the practice green set up for the next round while others had no chance, no warm up after first delay and now this. The USGA should contract with the PGA tour and let those guys run the rulings. The players were piling on which says either something about DJ or more probably something about how little they respect the USGA.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2016, 01:41:43 AM »
I blame it on an improper math and science education in our schools. If USGA officials understood math and science, they might understand gravity and friction. Unfortunately, at some point in time, they decided that law, or some other not based in reality profession, was more important, thereby freeing them from understanding mundane topics like how balls tend to roll downhill on smooth surfaces due to gravitational force, and lack of resistance from fiction.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2016, 03:02:26 AM »
DJ said he had not addressed it. His playing partner said the same. How can he be penalised? I cannot believe the USGA want to go down the route of if you cannot prove you did not cause something to happen then you will be penalised. What a bunch of numpties ::)


Jon

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2016, 06:48:27 AM »
So could someone clarify the line of sight ruling that seems to have not caused nearly as much controversy.  From what I could see he was in the primary rough and there was a temporary immovable obstruction about 100 yards away and in these events they give him line of sight relief.  It was then okay for him to drop 5 feet to the left out of the primary rough and somehow the obstruction was no longer in his way as he then proceeds to hit it directly over the obstruction and at the green.  To my mind the official should have walked with him to a location where the obstruction was no longer in play.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2016, 06:58:45 AM »
   Can someone who understands it please answer Jerry's question?  I spoke to a USGA rules maven yesterday and he says the temporary obstruction drop was correct.  I don't understand why, for the same reason Jerry states.

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