Green speeds at Bandon vs. Strand your favorite features

[James Brown]

I am making my first trip to Bandon Dunes in 2 weeks. 


I am curious what people would say about the green speeds at Bandon compared to links courses in the UK. 


I am also curious about the grass types at Bandon.  Are they all the same grass? 


And finally, I would be curious about people's views on the best individual features on any of the courses that they would suggest people look out for and appreciate. 

[William_G]

hahaha

I think you will see for yourself

is this like a humblebrag???

look forward to your report

[Pete Lavallee]

All courses were planted with primarily fescue, I believe Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes had some Colonial Bent in the mix. Sadly Poa Annuua has gotten hold, I believe both BD & PD are maintained as Poa these days. Absent a chemical control there seems to be no way to stop the eventual encroachment of Poa. Still a fine surface to putt on, just doesn't give the homogeneous surfaces of the UK that encourage the ground game.

[William_G]

LOL

Pete, I look forward to seeing you again in April 

The comparison of UK to Oregon is fallacious at best.

The State itself is just over 150 years old and Bandon Dunes is just over 15 years old.

((The turf at Oakmont is all Poa...it has adapted to the climate and is awesome...the turf at Pine valley is all Poa...it has adapted over time, and it is awesome))

The original Fescues at Bandon are adapting to an influx of Poa....time will tell

Do some research and we all look forward to your report.

read the most recent edition of the book "Dream Golf" before you travel

thank you

[Sven Nilsen]

I am curious what people would say about the green speeds at Bandon compared to links courses in the UK. 

All of the greens out here run around 10, probably pretty comparable to most UK links courses, other than those being tuned up for tournaments.

I am also curious about the grass types at Bandon.  Are they all the same grass? 

As Grey alluded to, the courses have different grass mixtures, but more importantly, they're all at different stages in their maturation processes.  The two older courses now have a mix of grasses, including poa.  There are long time caddies out here who say that the greens on Bandon and Pac are rolling as good now as they've ever seen them.  Trails is a bit more in the transition stage to the adaptation to the infuse of poa, but the greens are still running pretty pure.  Old Mac, being the newest of the four, is still pretty pure fescue, and the greens roll wonderfully. 

I'm not sure if I understand Pete's comment about homogenous surfaces that encourage the ground game.  There is nothing out here that discourages the ground game, as long as you play it smart and leave yourself a clear path to the hole.

And finally, I would be curious about people's views on the best individual features on any of the courses that they would suggest people look out for and appreciate.

At Bandon, soak in the way each hole plays with the wind, you're going to have it hitting your shots from every direction.

At Pacific, keep in mind how each shot strings together.  There's a plan of attack that will reward you on every hole, and its not always the obvious play.

At Trails, enjoy the walk and the journey, and pay attention to where you can miss each shot.  Its a tough course, but gets much tougher if you miss on the wrong side.

At Old Mac, have fun.  Play shots away from the hole, play bump and runs from 100 yards out and use the backstops, but whatever you do, don't go right on 12.

[Tom_Doak]

James:


The previous posters are correct, that the greens on the first two courses have been allowed to transition to Poa annua, while Old Macdonald is still almost 100% fescue.  Part of that is age, but part is also management.  I won't say the greens at Old Mac will never become dominated by Poa, but I think it will take a few years longer, because Ken Nice and his crew have learned as they go.


We never expected 100% fescue to last forever ... our only goal was to have a firm and fast and good playing surface, and starting with fescue has helped to set a high bar in that regard.


As to your question about green speeds, though I haven't played as much in the UK as of late, the greens at Bandon are consistently faster than the average greens in the UK.  I think Sven is right that Bandon's greens run around 10 on the Stimpmeter [though they vary with weather and seasonally].  There's no way the average UK course is 10 on the Stimpmeter.  Maybe the big championship sites where they collect big visitor fees, but not North Berwick and Cruden Bay and Dornoch and the rest of the tourist trail.

[Kalen Braley]

Pete L,

Pardon my ignorance here, and please don't laugh me out of the forum for asking....

But are you suggesting with your last post that Poa doesn't infest everything in the UK as well?  Seems like that environment is ideal conditions for the stuff to invade everywhere.

[Pete Lavallee]

Kalen,

As you may know my wife is still a subject of the Queen! We went to her birthplace last summer, she was born and raised not far from Royal Lytham & St Annes. We played 11 rounds on 10 courses in 21 days and didn't see a tuft of Poa Annua. Now I realize that they tend to "burn off" the Poa in the summers by withholding water when it gets hot; I've never seen a US course go to that extreme. I expect if they watered regularly like in the US it would be a problem, but it certainly wasn't on the links courses we played in greater Lancashire.

My comment on the "homogeneous nature of grassing" was meant to imply that since you don't go from one grass type to another it's easier to calculate ground game shots. Of course you can roll the ball through the fescue and figure how it will react when it hits the Poa; but if you have the same grass type, just cut a little shorter I think it makes the decision to keep the ball on the ground a lot easier.

[Kalen Braley]

Pete,

Thanks for the feedback.  I had forgotten your wife is a member of the CommonWealth...my deepest sympathies ...       (Gotta put a few of those in just to make sure)

As for Poa in the UK, I am a little surprised to hear its not an issue, as I didn't think summers got warm enough to actually kill it all off.  Or perhaps your experience was just a regional thing?

Either way, fascinating stuff, because I've yet to see a wall to wall Poa presentation here in the states (at least in the West) that one could label F&F.

Kalen

[James Brown]

hahaha

I think you will see for yourself

is this like a humblebrag???

look forward to your report

Definitely not.

[John Kavanaugh]

All courses were planted with primarily fescue, I believe Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes had some Colonial Bent in the mix. Sadly Poa Annuua has gotten hold, I believe both BD & PD are maintained as Poa these days. Absent a chemical control there seems to be no way to stop the eventual encroachment of Poa. Still a fine surface to putt on, just doesn't give the homogeneous surfaces of the UK that encourage the ground game.

The word sadly implies that the courses are not as great as they once were. Is that a fair take on the infestation of Poa?

[James Brown]

James:


The previous posters are correct, that the greens on the first two courses have been allowed to transition to Poa annua, while Old Macdonald is still almost 100% fescue.  Part of that is age, but part is also management.  I won't say the greens at Old Mac will never become dominated by Poa, but I think it will take a few years longer, because Ken Nice and his crew have learned as they go.


We never expected 100% fescue to last forever ... our only goal was to have a firm and fast and good playing surface, and starting with fescue has helped to set a high bar in that regard.


As to your question about green speeds, though I haven't played as much in the UK as of late, the greens at Bandon are consistently faster than the average greens in the UK.  I think Sven is right that Bandon's greens run around 10 on the Stimpmeter [though they vary with weather and seasonally].  There's no way the average UK course is 10 on the Stimpmeter.  Maybe the big championship sites where they collect big visitor fees, but not North Berwick and Cruden Bay and Dornoch and the rest of the tourist trail.

Thanks.  Just very curious to see the conditions.  And to get a sense of the feel of the place golf wise compared to other places.  I live in DC, but I have played a lot of links golf in the UK and am bringing a group of links virgins to Bandon with me. 


I find I get a lot out of visiting the great courses by learning as much about them beforehand as I can.  The greens at Bandon look to be much more intense that for most of the good links courses elsewhere. 

[James Brown]

I am curious what people would say about the green speeds at Bandon compared to links courses in the UK. 

All of the greens out here run around 10, probably pretty comparable to most UK links courses, other than those being tuned up for tournaments.

I am also curious about the grass types at Bandon.  Are they all the same grass? 

As Grey alluded to, the courses have different grass mixtures, but more importantly, they're all at different stages in their maturation processes.  The two older courses now have a mix of grasses, including poa.  There are long time caddies out here who say that the greens on Bandon and Pac are rolling as good now as they've ever seen them.  Trails is a bit more in the transition stage to the adaptation to the infuse of poa, but the greens are still running pretty pure.  Old Mac, being the newest of the four, is still pretty pure fescue, and the greens roll wonderfully. 

I'm not sure if I understand Pete's comment about homogenous surfaces that encourage the ground game.  There is nothing out here that discourages the ground game, as long as you play it smart and leave yourself a clear path to the hole.

And finally, I would be curious about people's views on the best individual features on any of the courses that they would suggest people look out for and appreciate.

At Bandon, soak in the way each hole plays with the wind, you're going to have it hitting your shots from every direction.

At Pacific, keep in mind how each shot strings together.  There's a plan of attack that will reward you on every hole, and its not always the obvious play.

At Trails, enjoy the walk and the journey, and pay attention to where you can miss each shot.  Its a tough course, but gets much tougher if you miss on the wrong side.

At Old Mac, have fun.  Play shots away from the hole, play bump and runs from 100 yards out and use the backstops, but whatever you do, don't go right on 12.

Excellent.  It does look like Old Mac is the course with the most thinking and options to appreciate.


I'm playing Bandon and Pac twice and Trails and Old Mac once, so we'll leave a lot of learning for the next time around.

[Tom_Doak]

The word sadly implies that the courses are not as great as they once were. Is that a fair take on the infestation of Poa?

That's the fear, that it will change the playability of the courses.  But I did play Pacific Dunes this winter, and it's still as linksy as it has ever been.  [Lots of UK links have mostly poa in their greens, too.  And the fairways are still mostly fescue.]


For me, the fear has always been that eventually the Poa will take over the areas around the green, and they won't mow those low enough to keep it a fast surface you want to putt over.  Re-sodding those areas once every ten years or so would be the solution if it really starts to change the playability of the surface.  So far it has not.

[Pete Lavallee]

All courses were planted with primarily fescue, I believe Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes had some Colonial Bent in the mix. Sadly Poa Annuua has gotten hold, I believe both BD & PD are maintained as Poa these days. Absent a chemical control there seems to be no way to stop the eventual encroachment of Poa. Still a fine surface to putt on, just doesn't give the homogeneous surfaces of the UK that encourage the ground game.

The word sadly implies that the courses are not as great as they once were. Is that a fair take on the infestation of Poa?

Not at all. The Resort should be applauded for attempting an all fescue golf course; truly unique here in the US. The Poa makes it different, but not worse. We now know that it is a difficult task to present an all fescue golf course on the West Coast of the US for more than 10 years. However applying Primo and greens rolling now mean Poa is a perfectly fine surface to putt on, all year long. I see no downside whatsoever!

[William_G]

the playability and brilliance of Bandon is the sand dune base for most everything there regardless of the botany of the turf

man cannot dictate everything natural

time will tell and nature will take it's course...this is Golf as it was Meant To Be

green speeds at 10 are normal for a course with ocean breezes

it is still amazing to me how many avid golfers from around the States and Europe have not made the trip to Bandon Dunes

 

 

[Steve Lang]

   Do they still call OM+BT "the caddy killer"?

[Sean_A]

Pete


You must have hit a run of extraordinary courses because keepin poa out of greens is a constant battle in the UK. In fact, some clubs haven't fully recovered poa wise from the heavy watering days 80s and 90s. 


William


Oregon is a loooooong way from Europe.  If it was on the east coast I probably would have already visited at least once. 


Ciao

[William_G]

The Poa at Bandon Dunes is very good...very fast!
Pacific a little behind put doing well
Trails transitioning...kind of slow
Old Mac...still fescue, huge and pretty quick

Happy 4th from Bandon