Holes with significant vertical rise - examples and how much is too much?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,


What is the elevation change for second shot on the 7th at Old MacDonald? Seems like a lot, but the more I think about it being right on the ocean, I'm getting 40' seems reasonable.


The second shot to 17 at Crystal Downs from the bottom of the fairway is a big rise. And while we're on that course, although it's not a rise of the earth, how tall is the tree on 5 to hit the tee ball over?

I think from the bottom up to the green at Old Mac is 30 or 35 feet.  It was 50 before we started moving earth, which is why I didn't contemplate it when I first worked on the routing.


The second shot to 17 at Crystal Downs is only maybe 15 feet, after a 40-foot drop off the tee.  Likewise, the tree on #5 is not that much higher than the tee, because the tree trunk is a good 20-30 feet lower than the tee.  I'm at home, so I can't give you the exact figures [and I don't know how tall the tree is, anyway]. 

[BHoover]

The 18th at Brookside is significantly uphill. My guess is that it plays at least 75 feet from the lowest point in the fairway up to the green.

As a caddie there in high school, I can attest that it was a backbreaker when carrying two bags.

[Bryan Izatt]

My home course - The Club at Bond Head North Course by Hurdzan Fry (Jason Straka) - has many uphill shots.  The three most significant are the 2nd a short par 4, the 6th also a short par 4, and the 17th hole a medium par 5.


The 2nd plays across a native area and then steeply uphill for the second shot.  From the landing area to the green is 40 vertical feet.  Don't be fooled by the height of the pin - it's 15 feet tall.  Most players don't like the hole, both because of the 200 yard or more forced carry tee shot and the blind uphill second, but everyone remembers it.







The 6th is a straight uphill par 4.  From the middle tees it is 80 feet uphill to the green.  I've seen long hitters drive the green from the middle tees.  The ball comes in really flat and scoots through the green.  Although it's only 205 yards to carry the bunkers, it requires a towering drive with a level land carry of 250 yards or more.  This hole too is widely disliked because it gets people out of their comfort zone. It can be relatively straight forward if you play up to the first plateau fairway and then have blind short iron shot up another 40 feet to the green.  This one also has a 15 foot pin to help with the blind second shot.  The picture looking back down the hole offers a better sense of the elevation.











The 17th is another forced carry over a natural area followed by a long uphill second and third shot to various terraces up the hill.  The rise from the beginning of the fairway to the green is an another astonishing 80 feet (measured).  The hole appears daunting from the tee, but is quite playable, although it plays considerably longer than its listed yardage. Another 15 foot flag on this hole, as the third shot is often blind.

[Philippe Binette]

1st hole at sagebrush,


i don't know how much, but it's a lot

[Mike Hendren]

I did not care for the 16th at Brora but it was worth the climb for the tee shot at 17. 

Also, the 1st at Durness gets one huffing and puffing right out of the gate.

Langford's par 5 11th (the 3rd of 3 consecutive par fives) at Gatlinburg CC is extremely steep as well.

Bogey

[Jim Nugent]

How much does the 6th at Pebble rise, from the bottom of the fairway to the green? 

Also, from the pictures of Royal County Down, looks like you have to clear quite a hill when you drive off the 11th tee. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

The 15th hole at the Country Club of Asheville rises just over 100 feet from the bottom tee to the green level


The 4th and 13th holes on the El Campeon course at Mission Inn rise 75 feet from tee to green.


From the front tee on the 13th hole its possible to play the climb in one shot, but it the other two cases the elevation change will be covered over multiple shots.

[Jason Topp]

The 13th at Equinox in Manchester, VT does not quite fit the category but the green sits well above the fairway which makes for a tough 435 yard hole. 

Not the best pictures but enough to give you an idea.  This is from the start of the fairway


From 50 yards short of the green:

[Bryan Izatt]

The first hole at the Gourock Golf Club outside Glasgow is a short par 5 that ramps straight up hill with a vertical rise of 125 feet - nothing like being exhausted after the first hole.  Not surprisingly the hole plays to an average over par.

[Greg Taylor]

9 and 18 at Old Town...?

[Ian Andrew]

My home course - The Club at Bond Head North Course by Hurdzan Fry (Jason Straka) - has many uphill shots.  The three most significant are the 2nd a short par 4, the 6th also a short par 4, and the 17th hole a medium par 5.

Bryan,

Since I've played it a few times.
2nd works for me, 6th is too much and 17th works fine - that help.

[Ian Andrew]

Southerdown in Wales is a great suggestion by many.
It's by far the most aggressive that somehow kind of works.
I thought it was 70 feet, but I might be mistaken.

The 13th at Capilano does not change 100' - its about 35 to 40'

Now the par three ninth does rise 40' which is amazing at just under 200 yards.
... and its a great hole!

[Doug Wright]

An uphill hole that I think qualifies as "too much" is the 9th at Castle Pines Country Club (next door to Castle Pines Golf Club, where the International used to be). A short par 4 that calls for a boring fairway wood or long iron followed by a 100 yard (or less) shot straight uphill to a blind green perched 50-75 feet above the fairway. I think the hole is pretty universally panned; I've heard from members that Nicklaus was asked to change the hole and he said his name would come off the course design if anything was done to it.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The 18th at Reddish Vale is notable not only for its 110ft vertical rise, but also for the fact that the first 200 yards are perfectly flat!





All that 110ft rise has to be tackled in the next 150 yards to the green.





A few years ago Ryder Cup player and local boy Jamie Donaldson visited Reddish to play with our own touring pro at the time (who has since reverted to amateur status)


They messed about on the 18th tee hitting drivers and legend has it that Donaldson got to within 20 yards of the green. That's 330 yards and 100ft uphill.

[Josh Stevens]

So what is the general sense? for or against steeply uphill holes?

YEs the walk can be drag, but my track has two holes that have steeply uphill approaches of say more than 50ft, which are excellent, and another two where there is steep hill (+75ft) to drive up onto a plateau fairway, which are a total pain due to the climb.

I think every course should have a few up hill approaches as they represent such a shot making challenge.  Having to hold your feet and try to stop tugging it hard left is a proper golf shot, especially if the green complex is appropriate to the shot.

On the other hand, driving up a hill is nothing special

[Jason Way]

Most of these are more likely in the 25ft - 50ft range, but they are certainly steep uphill either tee to green, or on the approach:


From my trip to Boston this week - 1st at Whitinsville, 12th at Wannamoisett, 13th at Myopia, 17th at Essex County


Others that come to mind - 17th at Kingsley, 4th at Hyde Park, 15th at Harrison Hills, 4th and 18th at Sand Valley, 7th at Harbor Shores, 18th at Sand Hollow, 9th at The Country Club, 17th at French Lick Ross, 18th at Arcadia Bluffs


I wouldn't want a steady diet of sharp uphillers like this, but as with all things GCA, in moderation they are interesting.   

[David_Madison]

I remember the 350-yard par-4 10th hole at Alpine in northern NJ as being seriously uphill. It's been a long time since I've last played it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the rise was 75' or more. The hole has been mentioned multiple times on this site for its quirkiness.

[Jon Cavalier]

The 18th at Reddish Vale is notable not only for its 110ft vertical rise, but also for the fact that the first 200 yards are perfectly flat!





All that 110ft rise has to be tackled in the next 150 yards to the green.





A few years ago Ryder Cup player and local boy Jamie Donaldson visited Reddish to play with our own touring pro at the time (who has since reverted to amateur status)


They messed about on the 18th tee hitting drivers and legend has it that Donaldson got to within 20 yards of the green. That's 330 yards and 100ft uphill.

That is an absolutely terrific looking golf hole.

[Bryan Izatt]

My home course - The Club at Bond Head North Course by Hurdzan Fry (Jason Straka) - has many uphill shots.  The three most significant are the 2nd a short par 4, the 6th also a short par 4, and the 17th hole a medium par 5.

Bryan,

Since I've played it a few times.
2nd works for me, 6th is too much and 17th works fine - that help.

I don't mind the 6th as it is so different from most any other hole.  This year having moved up to the more age/distance appropriate white tees, I now have a realistic option of trying to drive the green - one for five tries so far.


It must have been a challenge to route the course over the two large hills split by the deep river valley.  Interesting that Jason chose to use so many uphill holes given the cart mandatory nature of the place. 


Oh, and I forgot to mention the 9th hole which is also 70 feet uphill.  This course is not for the weak of heart.

[Martin Lehmann]

At my course we have an uphill par 3 of 195m (214yd) with the green sitting 15m (35ft) higher then the tee. Standing on this tee, you're faced with a completely blind shot (only the top of the flagstick is visible). Although the setting of the hole is really nice, it's an example of extremely poor design.


As part of a course renovation, we made some changes to the hole last year. From the new back tee it's still 214yd, but the standard men's and ladies tee have been moved forward to respectively 175yd and 145yd. We raised them as much as possible as well. A small green side bunker, that used to be invisible, was removed and the fairway in front of the green was lowered and reshaped. With these changes we managed to turn a terrible par 3 in a reasonable one.


I still have the feeling though that there should be a logical ratio between the length of a shot (in this case on a par 3) and the elevation. With the help of Pythagoras or any other geometrical theorem, it shouldn't be difficult to define the margins a hole has to meet in order to be good or simply bad. Is there no such thing in the handbook for golf course architects? 



 

[Duncan Cheslett]

So what is the general sense? for or against steeply uphill holes?

I don't suppose that any architect would actually go out looking for them, but on a hilly site they must occasionally be inevitable -particularly if the clubhouse is either high up or low down.


For every uphill hole there must logically also be an exhilarating downhill one. The 6th at Reddish Vale plays down the same slope that the 18th climbs.

[Mike Sweeney]

Just saw this thread. I am now 53 and I walked Copake CC with ease

[Jon Cavalier]

Does anyone have a pic of the the 5th hole at Ballyhack?

Per your request:

[Jon Wiggett]

The 13th on the Fream course at Nordcenter in Finland was a 350 (ish) yard par four that had a climb of about 100' . The fairway had a series of clever steps in it so the hole whilst tricky was very playable. From the backs this was one really tough course.


Jon

[James Bennett]

My first thoughts were Riviera #18 tee shot (already mentioned) and Pine Valley #2 green approach.  I suspect the latter is more visually intimidating rather than extreme.

James B